Ep. #9, Learning To Sell

Scott Sambucci: Most startup CEOs are like, oh, selling is so hard and I don't know if I could do it.

Everything is a framework. And so my job is to give them mental frameworks. Then all they're doing is filling in the blank.

Oh, well, there's my sales process. Done. That first sales call that you're doing, you should almost never talk about product. Anytime I meet a startup, I ask them, what problem are you solving?

Yaron Sadka: Hi, I'm Yaron Sadka, senior sales engineer at Runscope. You're listening to Road to Growth, a podcast about startup sales organizations brought to you by Heavybit, a nine-month program for developer-facing startups. Road to Growth is a bi-weekly series that breaks down SaaS sales organizations one piece at a time.

From the first person to kick off sales at a company all the way down to the partnership and cohesion with the marketing and product teams, we'll take you through what it takes to build a powerful, fine-tuned sales organization. If you're interested in being a guest, have a topic for us to discuss, or a role you'd like us to dive into, send an email to roadtogrowth at heavybit.com.

On this episode, I'm joined by Scott Sambucci, founder of SalesQualia. We discuss his repeatable frameworks for sales success.

From Textbooks to SalesQualia

Welcome to another episode of Road to Growth. Today we're being joined by Scott Sambucci, founder at SalesQualia. Thanks for joining us, Scott.

Scott: Yeah, man. Happy to be here.

Yaron: Awesome. I don't know if you've taken a listen to our previous episodes. The way we start these off is just a couple minutes of your background and how you got to be where you're at over at SalesQualia now.

Scott: Yeah, so I'll give you the short version. So I've been about twenty years doing enterprise sales and product development.

So I cut my teeth selling textbooks in North Carolina back in the late nineties and from there started doing some more technology-based products as the internet kind of grew up in the late nineties until early two thousands, and that's where I ended up in Silicon Valley working for three different startups, two in software and one in the data analytics space.

And all of those are enterprise or B2B companies. And so in all three cases, basically arrived at those companies with either zero or very little revenue. And then built those companies to the first millions in revenue and first customers.

So the focus of the companies I've worked with have been education tech, some fintech work, basically selling to universities, selling to the financial market, I've sold to the government, and I've sold to your typical private enterprises as well. So SalesQualia is really just a compilation of all of that work over the last twenty years.

So alongside of that, while I've been working, I've also been a professor at different universities for about ten years. And so over the last few years I had this sense that there was not, call it, a bastion of hope for a lot of startups when it comes to developing their sales process.

They come out and they start their companies, have really, really good products solving really important problems. And then you talk to them, they're like, yeah, I just can't get anybody to buy this thing. And you just know it's a good idea, you know it's a good product, you know they're solving a important problem.

And that's where I kind of merged together the teaching background with the work I've done in enterprise sales. And now I have SalesQualia, which is a company that's just dedicated 100% to helping startups find customers, grow revenue, and build their sales process.

Yaron: Awesome. That is one of the best, most comprehensive two minutes that we've had. So taking your experience, you kind of create SalesQualia. Me and myself, worked with a lot of startups and in starting up their sales and heard various people and not necessarily their complaints, but what they're trying to do.

Problem First, Product Later

So what's kind of your first step when you start talking to a company, or you're coming into a company, whichever one from your experience. What's kind of the first thing you do before you even start selling the product?

Scott: So are you asking for me as a salesperson or somebody who's coaching startups? Is that different? No, I guess it is the same.

So fundamentally, it's interesting when I kind of do this as a test just to see where somebody is from a mindset standpoint. Anytime I meet a startup entrepreneur or a CEO, I ask them, hey, so you've got this company, what problem are you solving?

And the reason that's a test is it's an indication as to whether or not they will answer that question, which is like, oh, here's the problem we're solving in this market. We saw that there's this gap, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And our product is gonna fill that gap that nobody else has been able to solve or tackle.

So if you have a startup team or a founding team that thinks that way, it's completely different than if I asked, hey, what problem you're solving? And they go, oh, so we built this product and it's on this kind of platform and it's in the cloud and it does this and we've got this built in JavaScript and it's got all these features and I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, what problem are you solving?

I'm not asking about your product. I just want to know what problem you're solving.

And a lot of times you get either two reactions. You either get more about the product and they're just not getting what I'm trying to ask them. Or they go, oh, I see what you're asking me. That's a good question.

And so a lot of times, especially because most startup CEOs and teams are either product people or engineers, they just haven't thought about it from a market problem standpoint in a lot of ways. So that's why that's the first step I usually take with somebody is like, hey, what problem are you solving? 'Cause it helps me evaluate their mindset as to how they're approaching what they're working on.

Yaron: And the companies that have the mindset of we built this great product, it's so cool, do people with that mindset tend to be as successful, or can they be as successful, they just need to change their mindset? Or is that a huge red flag and saying, clearly you don't know the problem you're solving and until you figure it out there's nothing really that we can help you with?

Scott: Yeah, that's where you can bifurcate those people who, when I first ask them what problem you're solving, they either continue to talk about the product or they kind of go, oh, I see what you're saying. So it's just a matter of mental flexibility.

So a couple of the startups that I'm working with right now as part of my coaching program, they have a pretty well established product that they built, but they don't have any customers, and that's one of the reasons they want to come work with me.

And one of the first exercises that we do is have them go and, as they're selling their product, identify, are you really clear about the problem you're solving for the market that you're addressing, and going through that sales process 10-15 times, and if you're falling on your face, then maybe it's not really clear to the customer what problem it is that you're solving.

And so that's where you're gonna have to change your approach, whether that means changing the product altogether and doing a product of it or really going back and assessing the problem that your product solves so that when you're speaking to customers, that very first sales call that you're doing with somebody, you should almost never talk about product.

That first conversation you're having with a potential customer should be all about their problem and what the history of the problem is, how they've tried to solve it in the past, what the pain points are. And even better, and this is kind of like the best case scenario, is where you're actually in a position to educate the client about their problem in ways they haven't before.

So if that's your first conversation, your first call with somebody over twenty or thirty minutes, now you've built the street cred in that person's mind to then share a little bit about your product and say, oh, really interesting. Now I understand your problem. What you've described to me is exactly the reason we build XYZ product.

Maybe we can hop on the phone again week or set up a meeting with your team, and I can show you a little bit on how the product works. So if you take that approach, then you're gonna have a much higher success rate.

So what you need is an entrepreneur that's willing to not talk about the product.

And that's where it's hard because it's like, that's the thing you run to because that's the thing you know, is your product. You want to talk about the product, you're really proud of it, it's your baby.

So if you can get that startup CEO or that entrepreneur to kind of muzzle themselves about the product and just focus on the customer, then a couple early successes in those kinds of conversations will then get them to understand how critical it is to focus on the problem, not the product.

Does that make sense?

Yaron: Yeah, definitely. So you now have your first call with a client. And it's not necessarily what you'd call a therapy session, but it's a way for you to kind of get a sense of their problems, see what their pain points are, make sure that they feel heard.

Is the person that's taking this call, in their mind, are they seeing some founder of a startup and they're just kind of like, hey, your product of school might help me get started? Or is this a later stage, your SDRs can have this call, or is this specific to just kind of a small team where you're talking to almost like one of the engineers?

Scott: So your question is whether or not, does it matter if in that sales call, if you're a startup CEO or you're an SDR, can you still have that same type of problem discovery conversation? Is that kind of the gist of the question?

So as a startup CEO, what I tell people is like, look, you've got a super unique position because you probably left your day job to go and solve this problem that exists in the marketplace. And so when you're approaching those people and approaching executive or a VP or somebody at another company, you say, look, I started this company because I feel like people just like you have this problem. I'd love to get your perspective on it.

And so it's not even about the product. It's just like, hey, I'm a startup CEO. And there's only so many months or years that you'll be able to use that as leverage because at some point you're not going to be able to be on those calls, and it's kind of like a cool thing for most people on the other side.

We have to remember that. Like, oh man, I'm some VP sitting in a cubicle in Dallas, Texas. And some guy who started a company, is like a star CEO in Silicon Valley, wants to talk to me. That's really awesome. So I think we should use that to our advantage as long as possible, if you can.

And positioning it as like, yeah, I'm an executive or I'm a startup CEO and I'm out here to try to learn as much as I can about this problem. Do you have a few minutes of your time that you could share with me? People, I've found, are very willing to share that time with you.

So the short answer on the startup CEO side, like, yeah, you should leverage that as much as possible. And it is a way to uniquely position that conversation.

Now on the SDR front, that's definitely also possible and that's really the opportunity that you have as an SDR to differentiate who you are and what your product does or what your company does versus the typical SDR out there, because the SDR kind of role has been out there long enough. It's five or ten years and people are pretty used to it now.

And people I think tell pretty quickly. Like I can tell pretty quickly when somebody calls me to try to pitch me stuff. I can tell the one out of 20 that are actually really, really good and ask good questions and are focused on, they've done their research, they learned about me, they learned about my company, they're asking questions that are truly qualifying questions.

Okay, found your company, saw your background, we've got this technology that we think might be a good fit for you guys, but could I ask you a few questions just to be sure? And then they ask really good questions. I like that conversation. I appreciate that conversation because if it is a good product that solves my problem, I want to know about it.

So it's really a matter of the SDR doing their homework, doing the research for each individual call and not treating it like a list that, okay, I gotta get through these fifty calls today.

Yaron: Right. So it seems regardless of who's making the initial call or who's on the other side of the line, whether it's the CEO, the SDR, whatnot, the person who's talking to the client should be more concerned with what is the client experiencing and can we help them get over this hurdle and be more successful, is what I'm hearing. It's just kind of like we know our product and we know that our product can actually help them overcome this.

Confirm, Ask, Explore

Scott: Yeah, it's just, it's like human skills 101. It's like you wanna have some empathy and you want to appreciate people's time. And if you ask for 15 minutes, be done in 14 minutes. And make sure when you're asking questions, don't ask stupid questions that you can get the answers to online.

Like, oh, how big is your company? Or how many people work there? Or where are you guys based?

Like, get to it. Say, look, here's the thing. So what I tell people, how to structure sales calls, is if you were to take a sheet of paper, divide it into thirds, top third, write the word confirm. The middle third, ask. Third third is explore.

So if all of your sales calls follow this prescription, the first minute or two is confirming information. Like, hey John, saw you're the VP over at XYZ Bank. I was just reading about your bank and the issues you were having with data security. And I saw that you were the VP of information security. Could I ask you just three or four questions about the challenges you guys are facing?

So the confirm piece, what it's doing is confirming, you're confirming who that person is. You're confirming that there's a problem that exists, and you're also confirming for that person that, okay, this is a legitimate person on the other side that's done their homework.

So just by doing that, you've basically bought yourself about two to five more minutes on the phone. Because if I get that call, hey Scott, I saw you're the founder, CEO of SalesQualia, blah blah blah. I saw you do this. I read this blog post, I read this Quora post, I saw your video.

I'm like, okay, cool. I'll give this person two to five more minutes.

So that's the first section of the sales calls, confirm. Then that's the ask, that's where you're asking your questions. Like, okay, these are the two or three questions I really want to ask you about your data security issues. Question one, question two, question three, make sure that they're specific and pointed and structured in a way that, again, it's not information you could have gotten publicly. So again, you're showing the person that you're asking good questions that are discovery based.

And then the last bit of the call is explore. Like, okay, now that I understand your situation, what do you think about hopping on the phone with one of our subject matter experts or getting on the phone with a product manager or talking to an account manager about how our solution might be able to solve the problems that you have?

So you're confirming information, you're asking your questions, you're exploring the next step. If you do that, then that's, to me, the easiest structure around every sales call.

Yaron: So it sounds to me like anybody can do this.

Scott: Oh, totally.

Yaron: People are so scared, they're like, I don't know, I can't sell. But from what you've just described, and that's exactly what I've experienced on a day-to-day basis in terms of my job as a sales engineer, is, yeah, anybody can sell. You just have to have the desire and the kind of drive to listen to people and what their issues are.

Scott: Dude, that's the thing. Like most startup CEOs are like, oh, selling is so hard and I don't know if I could do it. I'm like, all right, let me get this straight. You left your day job, you left a 401k in health insurance, you probably have a spouse at home that's probably pretty darn nervous. You probably also have kids at home.

You've now decided that you're gonna make your life's work and you're gonna start spending your savings and you're gonna go around asking family and friends for money so you can run this company. You've actually built the product somehow, some way, you've got an MVP done. You're excited about everything that is possible in your company, and after all of that, you're afraid to actually go talk to people that might be willing to pay you money for the product?

What are you, freaking nuts? Like, you have to do this. This is your job. You have to do this. And so when you position it that way, they're like, oh, yeah, I guess you're right.

So then it's just a matter of giving them really simple frameworks like the Confirm, Ask, Explore, or, hey, what problem are you solving? as a way to make them realize that there is no secret password to figure out how to sell. It's just conversation, but structuring the conversations in a way that make logical sense to the people on the other side.

Yaron: Right. So, it's funny, 'cause we're talking about a lot of people who are engineers who are starting these companies and to them everything that they know is very technical and logical. And it seems like all that's being done is really putting sales in that position and just showing to them how much of a pattern it really is, right? It's like if you just follow this pattern, and engineers understand patterns like that, they can just kind of pick it up really quick and be like, I can run with this, and are now not necessarily salespeople, but can actually make the sales on their own.

Scott: Yeah. Everything is a framework. And so my job is to give them mental frameworks, then all they're doing is filling in the blank.

Six Questions and Sales Sprints

So one of the frameworks that I teach people, the overarching framework I teach people, is what I call the Q framework. You're basically answering six questions, which is the Q, in order to quantify and qualify your sales process.

So those six questions are, what problem are you solving? Who are you solving it for? Why are those people buying from you? Like, what's the value proposition? How do they buy from you?

Like, what's the plan once they say go? When is the next step happening in the sales process? And where are you in the sales process, like early stage, late stage?

If you can answer those six questions, you have yourself a sales process.

So then all you're doing is, if you had like another blank sheet of paper, you had those six squares on the paper, you're like, okay, well, I know what problem I'm solving and I know I'm targeting, but I'm not really clear on the value proposition and how people buy for me.

Well, I guess I better go figure that out. And then you go figure it out and you fill in that part of the worksheet. And before you know it, you're like, oh, well, there's my sales process. Done. So yeah, I agree with you.

Anybody can do this. It's just the challenge, and goes back to why I started the company, is that so many of these entrepreneurs that were starting these really great companies with great products and on great ideas, they just, nobody had these frameworks for them. It was always like, oh, you have to read this article and then you have to figure out how to present, and it's just like everything is more strategic and less tactical.

And so what I've really tried hard to do is make everything that I do and everything I teach very tactical based on the core strategy that you can read anywhere.

Yaron: More hands-on learning, it seems like, instead of just kind of, yeah, just go do stuff. And so how often are you evaluating these six questions as an entrepreneur, right? Your company, how often are you looking at the sheet and being like, you know what, this has changed. We added something new and we should kind of reevaluate things.

Scott: I mean, it's kind of like a weekly thing where you might not be looking at all six of those questions. I mean, the other way that I structure learning is I tell people, look, you know what an engineering sprint is, right?

They're like, yeah, every two weeks we come up with what's the feature list and what we need to work on and what's the outcome after those two weeks. I'm like, cool. So let's do a sales sprint.

So in the sales sprint, we're gonna look at these six questions, figure out where your biggest weakness is. And let's work on that weakness over the next two weeks. Now you've got other stuff going on.

I know you have to travel, you've got to recruit, you've got to build, but from a selling standpoint, from a sales process standpoint, we're mostly going to focus on that one key weakness or that one key risk in your sales process. So let's focus in on activities that are going to help you fill in that hole or cover up that risk.

And after those two weeks, now you can check that box and you move on to the next biggest risk or the next gap. So it's just a very process-oriented way of going about it. And so yeah, you're kind of like, you can't work on all six at one time 'cause it'd just make your head explode.

But if you choose like one or two areas every couple of weeks and you do that repeatedly over like two or three months, you work on that from like March until June, now with like three to four months time, you've basically filled out your sales process and now you probably picked up a few customers along the way.

And now you've got the repeatability and scalability that you need to go hire salespeople because now you have customers. You've proven that there's value here.

And go hire some salespeople to go repeat that process that you've personally built.

Yaron: Yeah, so I do want to touch on the sales sprints because as somebody who's kinda understood sprints from an engineering perspective prior to moving into sales, it's hard to find that mentality outside of the engineering organizations because they don't, for some reason they feel like they can't operate that way. How did you first start with quote unquote sprints for the sales organization, which is not a typical kind of step by step organization?

Scott: I think I might have done it implicitly without knowing it when I was running a couple different sales organizations. So when I was COO at Altos Research, I had a couple of sales people that worked under me. And to get them up and running, they're coming in, they've never sold this kind of product before in this kind of market, like, I can't try to get them to learn everything at once.

And to do monkey see, monkey do, like, okay, watch me do these deals. Well, you're talking about like six to twelve month sales cycles. So it's like, will take forever to get those people up and running.

So I guess maybe that's the teacher in me, where I was like, okay, let's just turn this into little lessons. So like, okay, Jeff, over the next two weeks, here's the one thing. If you could just do this every day, focus on the one thing every day, then the thing is, I want you to take these leads that are coming in and call these leads in this segment of our database, right? And then see if you're getting demos.

So then now you've done that somewhat successfully, you probably have like a week or two of meetings set up. Like, cool. So then now the next week or two, let's just make sure these three demos that you have set up, let's just over-prepare for them so that you know exactly what goes into creating a good demo, getting the next steps coming out of that demo so that you know exactly how to do that piece.

So it just kind of, like, implicitly, like I said, I think I probably came up with it as a COO or VP of sales. Where it became, I think, most structured for me was over the last couple of years when I was going to the Lean Startup Conference, just getting more familiar with lean startup and this idea of focusing on biggest gaps and risks in your product process or your business process, like the Business Model Canvas and the Lean Canvas and the Lean Startup and all that other stuff.

I was kind of like, okay, this is all product based and company based. What if we just take this and apply it to the sales process? And that's kind of where, from a coaching and teaching standpoint, it kind of made sense, because that was something that if I talked about the sales process in those terms, the engineers and the product people that are starting companies are like, oh yeah, I get that. I know all that stuff. Like, cool.

Well, let's just work from that paradigm. As opposed to trying to get you to step over into my mental thinking from a selling standpoint, we'll just work from what you already know and build from there.

Yaron: Right. So then do these sprints kind of disappear once somebody is fully up and running, or are you able to continue moving forward utilizing sprints by just kind of alternating and going through a cycle of them?

Scott: Yeah, so I've got one client right now, so he's got a list of like fifty or so people that have been responding, that over the last like month or so have responded to some outreach he did. So of those fifty, he's like, and he's, these are like Fortune 500 companies that he's going after as a startup, which is a little crazy, but I love it. Because there's a way to get into it.

And so what he's realized is like he's not adding enough value. So the plan that we came up with for him was, look, why don't you run like a webinar series, almost like a podcast series, and say, look, once every two weeks you're gonna interview an executive for one of these companies. And just ask them about how they approach health and wellness, which is the area in which he's selling into these big companies.

And so like he's been texting me over the last four days. Like every time he gets, like, he's like, dude, you're not gonna believe this. I got another interview lined up. Like, these people are now just like coming to me as like, if I'm approaching them about doing a webinar series interview, they want to talk to me, but it's the same exact person that wouldn't reply to my sales email.

So for him, we're like, okay, we're gonna focus on the next two or three weeks, getting this webinar strategy up and running. Once you get that up and running, then it kind of goes on autopilot. And then after three or four months, maybe you want to come back and revisit it and do it again. But for now, in the short run, run like three or four webinars and get a couple of those people over the goal line from a selling standpoint, because now you've built stronger relationships and you're adding a lot more value, then you sort of like mission accomplished for that sprint.

So to answer your question, yeah, you can always come back to this stuff, and if you're doing a good job of documenting, just like you would with code, if you're doing a good job of documenting and building a repeatable process, you don't want to hard code your sales process anymore that you want to hard code some engineering code in a platform that you're building. So you could definitely come back to it, yeah.

Process Versus Instinct

Yaron: Yeah, and you mentioned process a couple times there. It's something that startups kinda hate, right? It's the idea of process and having rigid ways of doing things.

Though, in my opinion, in sales it helps a lot, especially when you're onboarding new people, is to have a structure and a way in place for them to get going. And I'm sure they appreciate it as well because there's nothing worse than coming into a new company and not having that in place and now you gotta go and kind of build it on your own and figure it out instead of just having a flywheel already there, you're just like, A, B, C, D, E, how it works, and you can just kind of be plugged in and make your commission, be happy.

So how much do you try to document when you are in this small initial phase of a few people, maybe twenty or less, how much of this are you documenting and building process versus just kind of experimenting and finding out new things but not necessarily documenting it because it's changing so rapidly?

Scott: Yeah, I get the reality of that. I mean, it's tough. You don't want to over report or overanalyze everything because then you get crippled by, like, I have to log how many emails I sent, have to log how many responses I got.

So you do want to document to a degree, like, okay, this sprint, here's the focus, here are the outcomes and what do we learn, so that you can go back and kinda use that as a way to either come back to that sprint or use it for future learning. On the other hand, you also have to kind of trust some intuition. I mean, it can't just be totally prescriptive from that standpoint.

Like you have to say, okay, I'm gonna go to this conference and I'm setting up these meetings and the approach that I'm trying is not working, so I'm gonna do something totally different, even though it wasn't kind of what I expected to do.

That's kind of the art and craft of not just being a salesperson, but being an entrepreneur. On the one hand, yeah, you have to constantly look for ways to de-risk your operation, but on the other hand, you have to kind of trust your instincts because you're seeing the world in a way that other people aren't seeing it.

So trust those instincts if they're that strong.

The First Sales Hires

Yaron: For a lot of people that start companies, they don't necessarily know sales all that well. Those that do, this doesn't really apply to them because they know what they want and what they need.

For people that don't have experience in sales specifically, what would your kind of first, second, and third hires be, assuming that, let's say, you're some sort of semi-technical founder, so you can kind of get away with that?

You've been doing the sales process on your own. You've been reaching out to all the leads on your own. What are the first, second, and third people you kind of want to bring in to your sales organization?

Scott: So the first person I bring is, I've always referred to it as a utility person. So it's somebody who you might hire them and say, look, you're responsible for like customer development, business development, and sales, because like on one day it might be, I need you to call a bunch of inbound leads that have come in because we published a white paper or we changed some stuff on our SEO and we're not getting some inbound leads.

The next day I might need you to actually put together like a presentation that I'm going to be delivering to a larger potential client. And the next day I need you to just call and be a product person and call people and do core customer development. So you need somebody who is kind of fungible on a day-to-day basis, and that's why I call it the utility person.

And oftentimes that person will eventually become kind of your first sales hire in a sense, because as you're building out the product, you'll have more product people to take over the customer development stuff. As you start to grow, you might hire a marketing person. So you don't need that person to work on the marketing stuff.

So then it becomes fully focused on customer acquisition. They become kind of, they graduate into, they specialize themselves into becoming the first salesperson. But eventually the next two people that you're going to hire might be the first or second, call it the real salesperson.

So that first utility hire, a good hire for this oftentimes can be a recent graduate that just showed a lot of moxie when they were in school, whether they tried to start their own companies, they tried to build an app, they were very entrepreneurial. And they just want to be part of the flow.

Like they're like, man, I just graduated from this college. I moved to Silicon Valley. I want to be part of this. Tell me what I have to do today. Like, that can be the great first hire.

The second and third, the next two salespeople, are gonna be more like proper salespeople. And they should have some experience, but not too much, because if you try to hire, and this is a mistake that I've read a lot of companies make, is like too soon, too early, they try to hire like the big enterprise salesperson with 20 years experience in the big Rolodex.

The problem is that person has no idea how to work in an uncertain environment, like a startup.

So you're better off with more junior people or less experienced people that have some sales experience, and you're still, as a startup CEO, going to be the VP of sales.

You're still going to be involved with sales, but at least those early salespeople are mature enough that they can bring some deals along. Like maybe they bring them halfway and then you have to bring them home. But you need that experience to get it halfway and qualify out the bad leads.

Yaron: Good. Yeah, that's a lot of good information that you've shared with us, so thank you for that. Sales for startups is not easy, right?

Scott: There's a lot of work that needs to be done.

Yaron: Things don't just kinda pour in through the door. So definitely a lot of good information there for people who are looking to get started or don't have a lot of experience selling.

I'm sure that you'd also be happy to have them reach out to you if they are looking for a coach. So if somebody is out there looking for some sales help, Scott is definitely happy to help. You guys are at salesqualia.com, correct?

Scott: Yep, sales and then qualia, q-u-a-l-i-a.com. You can just send me a note on email, scott, S-C-O-T-T, at salesqualia.com, or just, you could, I'm in a lot of places, like I write a lot on Quora. I've got a YouTube channel where I'm posting videos every week, sales tips. I have a Monday morning sales challenge that I post every Monday morning.

I have a mailing list called the Friday 4, which are four, I call them four non-random sales ideas you can use right away. So people can join that list as well.

So yeah, lots of ways to find me. But definitely, if anything, the one thing I tell people is like, look, you've got a question and you just need somebody to answer a question for you, just call me. Just email me and I will, I mean, seriously, I'm like, this is what I do. I would do this for free if I could.

So just, like, pick up the phone. Call me, send me an email and say, look, man, I got this one question, you got fifteen minutes, and dude, I will gladly do that for people.

Yaron: Beautiful. That sounds awesome. Thank you very much for that. Yeah, I really appreciate your time, Scott. Thanks for joining us.

Scott: Yeah, no worries, man. Thanks for having me on. That was a lot of fun.

Yaron: That's all we have time for today. Questions? Feedback? Contact me at roadtogrowth at heavybit.com. Thanks again to Heavybit for sponsoring our program.

To learn more about Heavybit's nine-month program for developer-facing startups, visit heavybit.com. And while you're there, make sure to check out their library. It's packed with great educational talks from developer company founders and industry leaders.

Thanks again for joining us. Have a great week.