Ep. #1, Feat. Saastr’s Jason Lemkin

Jason Lemkin: Your best tool is fun to use. It's a delight to use this tool.

The line, I think sometimes we have to learn it by crossing it.

Fred Stevens-Smith: I am probably too real.

Jason: Honesty and authenticity are not the same thing.

If you can get some people, then you can get twice as many people. So if you can get 10, you can get 20.

Fred: Hi, I'm Fred Stevens-Smith, CEO of Rainforest QA, and you're listening to my podcast, Zero To Won. On this show, we'll explore the often overlooked tools and techniques that the best founders use to win. Zero To Won is brought to you by Heavybit, a nine-month program for developer-facing startups. For more information, visit heavybit.com.

Hello, Jason Lemkin.

Jason: Hello, Fred. How you doing?

Fred: Good. Good. I'm caffeined up, so I may be a little faster than usual today. So I'm sure everyone knows who you are. But why don't you give us the elevator pitch of who you are?

Jason: Sure. Well, let's go backwards in time. I'm an investor now. I've been fortunate enough to invest in your company, which we'll probably touch on in here.

I've done about ten institutional or VC investments and another ten or so seed and angel investments, which have done reasonably well. I've built up a web community for SaaS founders called SaaStr that we'll chat a little bit about today, that gets about 2.2 million views a month, which I knew nothing about.

And before that I've been a founder twice, a company called EchoSign that was acquired by Adobe, where I learned all about SaaS and how to go from zero to tens and millions of ARR without knowing what I was doing. And another sort of venture-backed company selling big deals, but not in SaaS.

So I've known nothing about sales or marketing. I've had to hack it, but at least I spent ten years figuring it out, and part of my shtick and what I enjoy is helping other founders that don't know it benefit from my mistakes. Because my Zen learning is if you're as good or better than me and you make fewer of my mistakes on the revenue side, you can just kill it.

Fred: Awesome. Since this is the first podcast that we're doing about this, I should probably explain the premise and why I think it's useful.

So basically what I thought was that whenever I speak to a founder, kind of founder to founder, they always have some sort of interesting tidbit, some specific tool, some process, some hack that they really just live by and they're a total evangelist for. And it usually is highly related to their business.

It usually helps them push their business forward, makes their life more efficient, blah blah blah. And so the premise of this thing is, hey, what about if we just speak about that particular thing with each individual founder?

So what is that for you, Jason? Let's talk about that.

Social Media as a Tool

Jason: Yeah, let's talk. I was thinking about it and I think my tool is social media and Quora in particular, enhanced. But let's step back for a minute.

I thought about your question a while ago now that I'm an investor. So when I started, I tried to use Salesforce. I tried to log deals. It was just a huge waste of time.

Salesforce is not my sweet spot, right? I tried Pipedrive, I tried Trello, these are all like, but tracking stuff without anything to do with it was a waste of time. So CRM, useless, right? I couldn't, struggling, what can make this type of virtual assistance kind of cool, but doesn't really move the needle, right?

And then what I realized is, at least for me, the tool that helps me the most is efficiently connecting with as many people in an authentic way.

And when I was a CEO of my own startup, I tried to blog and I was terrible at it, right? From '06, when we had to choose between Blogger and TypePad in the good old days, spent us a month of vigorous debate.

From '06 to our acquisition on July 15, 2011, I probably wrote 400 blog posts with over 800 views. So as a founder, CEO, I was clearly horrific at blogging.

Fred: I had Twitter. Because for you, 800 views is not good.

Jason: Yeah, it's horrible. For a product used millions of times with eight figures of revenue to have 800 views of your blog, it's pretty abysmal, right?

Fred: Oh, that's not per post, that's all time.

Jason: All time, five years on my TypePad EchoSign blog. Total disaster. I was early on Twitter and while I was the founder and CEO I was too busy, I didn't even understand what Twitter was. I'm not even sure I understood until about a year ago.

I used Twitter for search, like who's talking about my company? That's what we obsess about. So I was horrible at social media, didn't understand it, but after we got acquired and I was in prison, I mean, I was put in my corner office as a VP, I decided I just cathartically wanted to share my learnings.

And what worked for me is Quora began to be launched and grow, is it actually, as niche as this stuff is, like how to design a sales comp plan and how do I raise pricing, things you and I have talked about, I just answered them for fun. And at first you'd get like two views, right?

But then turned out like guys like you and me, we sort of all have the same issues, right? And a lot of founders, they find this now, but actually this is four and a half years of work to get to an overnight success of millions of views.

The other cheat with tools, and I think why the series will be fun, is your best tool is fun to use, right? It's not just fun like the latest game on your iPad. It's just, the productivity enhancements are so high that it's a delight to use this tool, right?

It's why I fell in love with Rainforest, right? We're not going to talk about Rainforest today, but having been a founder and having incurred gray hair and a receding hairline due to functional QA, when we met, once I realized you're great, I'm all in because this is just something that would have been huge, huge ROI to me, right?

And so I think everyone you talk to will have this own pet tool that may not even be clear to people why they get this epic ROI.

Fred: So for me, it's a good plug.

Jason: It's real. So for me, I've learned, and we could break down social media, but for me Quora was interesting, and the Uber learning is, which is obvious, but which you're doing a great job of too, Fred, is be authentic, right?

And what I see in particular, for example, you see a lot of VCs now. I'm gonna roll my eyes virtually, you're not gonna see it on the podcast. Everyone wants to do a brand and PR and marketing.

You see all these VCs doing events and guest posts on TechCrunch, and I'm a guest writer on TechCrunch myself. I love it. But if it's not authentic or special, I don't know that any of this stuff really performs, right?

And when I look at myself, it was funny, you know, Medium today announced they raised how much? $45 million or something like that, at the same valuation as Business Insider, which was acquired for $450, $50 million. I think I get upwards of 60 views a month on Medium. Sixty out of 2.2 million. So ignore the fact I'm a bad hacker, right?

I think you have to, you don't do things that, try everything as a founder, but if you want, and these sort of things, you have to find what's authentic and what's your voice. And you try and do TV and you hate TV, it's not gonna work for you.

You gotta find the one thing that you're passionate about, and if you keep at it for years, and this SaaS thing takes a long time, as you know, when did you guys start Rainforest?

Fred: 2012.

Jason: Okay, so you're killing it this year, but it took more than twelve months, didn't it?

Fred: Oh yeah. Three years of pain. Three years of pain, six months of hockey stick.

Jason: Yeah, three years of pain and six months of hockey stick. So interesting that we invested six months before that.

Fred: Nothing to do with it. But listen, I wanna drill into two different things.

Jason: Drill in, please.

Fred: And we can talk about these in whatever way you want, but I think the two things that sound interesting to me are being authentic in order to build a brand. And the other thing was being good at Quora.

So talk about those. How do you do it? What's the Jason Lemkin top tip to be authentic? And why does that matter even?

Because I guess if I'm like a blogger VC or a wannabe blogger VC sitting at home and I'm thinking like, well, this guy's a hypocrite. He's got a massive brand and he does all this brand stuff and everyone knows he's the SaaS VC, so why can't I be the IoT VC? You know? So help us understand that a bit.

What Authentic Means

Jason: Well, let's step back for a minute. I think my learning having been a VP in the Fortune 500 tech company for a while is what's authentic is very different in different stages, right?

So when I'm a VP at Adobe, what's authentic actually is representing that red brand. And things would drive me crazy. When I was a corporate VP, the social media policy was incredibly restrictive, right?

If you wanted to tweet, you needed to go through corporate IR and all, you think it's crazy, but that red brand is what's authentic, right? And it's built. And on the inside of a big company, there's many things that will make you pull your hair out or your beard off if I'm Fred.

But that's authentic. I think the closer we get to end consumers, the closer we get to founders, to folks like this, then we see things explode when it's close to the heart, and these are things that I want to affiliate with.

And I will tell you, I have over 2,000 pieces of content I've developed. I don't think I've said one new thing. Do you really think that anyone that's in SaaS that's done better than me couldn't write the exact same thing? Right, even better? They really could, right?

But they don't say it from a heart with their experience, they don't have the same passion, and that's the white space I accidentally backed into, right?

But I was speaking with the CEO of Talkdesk, who you've met, another one of my great investments. I mean, he's already surpassed me, right? I said, well, you could write the whole thing. But he's not going to. He could, we were literally, you could.

So I'm not an expert, actually we were emailing about branding for the company. I'm not an expert in any of this stuff, but I know that if you're in an interesting area and there's more than ten people like you and you have something authentic and distinctive saying, you keep saying it, you can knock it out of the park.

There's another guy on the web, someone I think he's about nineteen or twenty, who started this podcast called Twenty Minute VC. And I think I was one of the first guys who reached out to me. I said, so you know, it was fun, right? We're doing this because it's fun.

And he's just killed it. And he says these crazy things like the most awesome VC in the world. Like it's such a privilege. And you know, if I said that, you'd know I'm a little jaded having been a founder several times.

But when this passionate 20-year-old says it's just incredibly an honor to interview these folks, that authenticity and the questions they asked are the same damn questions that you and I might ask, but that intense passion around it makes it, it's eye-opening, right?

And it's a great, subscribe to it. It's great. It's called Twenty Minute VC, and anyone else could ask the same questions, but that passion, it just resonates.

Fred: That all makes sense to me, but I think the other thing that I feel a lot, and you know, thank you for saying that I'm real on Twitter, which I am, but I think as soon as we have any kind of public relations department, they'll lock my Twitter down and erase all my tweets, because I am probably too real, as in like I say what I actually think on there.

And I think something that I have often thought is like, or something that's often chafed on me, is it seems like the most visible people as founders are the people who are doing the worst job actually behind the scenes. And the people who are shouting the loudest, they have the most time to blog, you know?

Jason: It's true.

Fred: And like, how do you balance that, right? Because you have this very nice organic evolution from like down in the trenches to being bored in your corner office, and you know, so that was this nice organic thing, but do you think that personal brand is an end in and of itself that listeners should be aiming to achieve?

Jason: Well, let's focus on CEOs and founders for a moment.

I think every CEO or founder of a successful company has to develop a personal brand.

And whether that's interesting things like Aaron Levie did, being a 22-year-old CEO trying to sell really to the enterprise, like big company enterprise, and how do you do that and developing something. That's obviously a particular example we're all familiar with.

But at the end of the day, if you have real paying customers, and here's what's really important to tie to your strategy here, is they're not just betting on the product today. They're betting on this journey. They're going on for many years with this product.

If I'm investing in Rainforest today, actually I'm okay that it doesn't do everything. I'm okay that Windows Mobile isn't really fully supported today. I'm okay that IE3 is on the distant roadmap or whatever it is. I'm okay because I know that I'm going to get years of improvement of this product.

And if it's just pretty good today and ten times better in one way. And part of that is not just intuiting it from the product, it's the CEO. If the CEO isn't out there, if the CEO isn't connecting with the customers, I don't know what journey I'm going on.

And I knew with Aaron Levie in the early days this is kind of a crazy journey. But I've got this high-energy guy, I've got these billboards everywhere saying the future of the enterprise, and this is kind of the journey that I want to be on, even if all the products, today Box is very differentiated, but back in the day it was a fungible product.

And so if nothing else as a CEO or founder, you need to drag your customers on a journey. And maybe the fact that I only had 600 pages in five years, it may not have been as terrible as I thought if a few of our biggest customers just read it. If I just had a little bit of a better job.

So I think as founders, we do have to be careful, especially as we go upmarket, as we're not consumer-y, that we're authentic, we push the edge, we have fun, but we don't cross the trust line. Right? Because as the customers get bigger, it becomes more and more mission critical, and that's really what I want to buy into, is the journey.

Fred: And so talk to us about that, because that sounds great, the trust line. What is it? How do I find out where it is?

Jason: I think the good news is it's like public speaking. Like you'll start off terrible at it and the more you're in the field, the better you'll get, right? I don't know how much public speaking you've done.

Fred: Not much.

Jason: But the first time I did it, I walked off.

Fred: Before you started?

Jason: It was a pretty small group and I got about 20 minutes into it. And I was so bad. Like I was in a parallel universe. I could hear myself talk from the clouds above.

Right? I could literally watch myself sweat all over my shirt, and after twenty minutes I said, like, I'm not this guy, I'm some introvert, and I'll never, and I literally walked out of the public, like right in the middle.

Fast forward to that, like, you know, I remember getting up in front of 5,000 people at the Adobe sales kickoff right after acquisition. I didn't prep for five minutes and I killed it. Right. So is that because? You do get better.

So the line, I think sometimes we have to learn it by crossing it, but I think generally speaking, the more time you spend with the customers and listening, you're just automatically gonna get better at this stuff.

And what we don't do a lot as founders is almost all of us don't spend enough time with our customers. We don't get out of the office.

And even if we do, we spend too much time on prospects and potential deals and we don't really learn these things unless we hang out with whoever it is, the PlanGrid and the Zenefits and the Betterworks that bought Rainforest a year ago. Go hang out with them and then you'll learn.

Right? Hang out with whatever cool company we're closing this month. You're just gonna learn about what feature they need to close the deal in September.

Fred: Yeah, that's a good point.

Quora as a Lead Source

Jason: So stepping back towards the Quora thing.

Fred: Yes, let's stay on tools. I think, no, no, but this is all interesting. That's the point, right? It's the jumping off point for all these interesting conversations. But I think something that we've seen is that some kind of small throwaway answers that I gave in the QA topic when I was bored one night a year ago or something are like a evergreen source of like you know, five referrals a day forever for the last constant year.

And some of those have actually converted.

And so I think there's definitely and I'm sure you have much more interesting data to share about this, but just as a jumping off point, there's definitely a kind of, you know, under-the-radar hack within the YC community, like to get out early and put yourself on all the lists of what are the best tools for X?

Right? So for us, what are the best outsourced QA companies? And I posted on all those questions and now we get tons of referral traffic. By tons I mean like five a day, but that's highly qualified.

So what has that been for you? Has that been leads for you as an investor? Is it general, the SaaS community? How would you recommend other people try and replicate that?

Jason: Well, let's step back a bit, because you said something very interesting that I think informs the ROI and all this, which is, and Rainforest is now doing five-figure deals routinely and will be doing six-figure deals quickly, right? So you get five qualified leads a month. If each of those are worth fifty K, I mean, we're doing great, but 250K extra bookings this month would be pretty nice.

Fred: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're gonna grow twenty-something percent this month, but a few extra percent would really ice the cake.

Jason: And so one of the things you learn is you don't need to necessarily connect with a huge denominator to have success, right? And sometimes, especially, it's like lead times.

When we start our companies, we're like every founder that's a first-timer, pulls out their hair, like, oh, I got Pepsi, but it's gonna take a year to close. Like they want to quit, right? But when you take the longer perspective in recurring revenue business, you realize it doesn't matter when Pepsi closes.

Like you want it as fast as possible. And if you have six months of cash, then long lead times are death. But if you don't think of things in 24-month cycles, then all this stresses you out.

And so I wouldn't worry, you know, I think being, doing things that are too subscale is problematic, but being as authentically close to potential end customers, even if it's niche, can perform far better than you doing a guest post on VentureBeat on, you know, what it's like to be a YC founder. I bet you don't get a single customer out of that. Right?

Not a single one. And so it's okay to be niche. It's okay to have those, and my point is, let's say you'd answered that question and it's honest and you're not hyping your company. People answer these questions all the wrong way, right?

"Glad you asked a question about Rainforest. Let me tell you about my even better tool, you know, snoozer.edu, and it's half the price and ten times better." Everyone does that. And that has never gotten anyone a qualified lead in the history of mankind, going back to the Egyptian days.

But answering an honest question, "Yeah, you're right. Rainforest is not a good use case for that, right? But here's what we did with Zenefits, and it worked really well with them. And I'm happy to help you."

Just say that. And you get 11 views, one or two of those might actually be from IBM or whoever it is, right? From PlanGrid. You don't know.

Authenticity Is Learned

Fred: Okay, so the authenticity thing is clearly a theme for you. Do you think that's just in your personality? Was that ever a decision to be like, I shouldn't like whitewash myself on social media? Well, maybe whitewash is the wrong word, but I shouldn't like project a specific image that I think people want to see.

Because you see some people, like for example Aaron Levie, who you mentioned, is an interesting case because his Twitter is like SaaS and cloud jokes. This is Aaron. He's the SaaS and cloud joke guy.

But like sometimes he must be like, wow, this traffic sucks, or like he wants to @United and tell them their Wi-Fi is horrible. You know what I mean? Like so in some ways he's already branding himself as the like SaaS cloud jokes dude.

Jason: I think it's more studied than that. And I'm the biggest, if you've read anything, I'm the biggest fan of Aaron and what he's done. That's there, right? Look at all the stuff I've read.

But Aaron's highly authentic. But authentic doesn't mean you do everything. Okay, and what I think, if you want to study the case study of Aaron on Twitter, is he wants to be two things.

Because the first time I think I spoke at BoxWorks, this week they're having the big event, it was a hundredth the size. And a Fortune 100 customer came up to me after I spoke on a panel, and she asked me a question about my product, and I gave her the answer. She said, no, that's not what Aaron told me.

Okay. And so what Aaron wanted to do was he had to thread a needle. He wanted to be enterprise. But here's the thing that you didn't see on the outside about Box. This is why Box blew up in bigger companies.

Box is the one cool tool that the CIO brought into their company. Okay, all the other crap they did, like Concur or Salesforce or Workday, really important, but I want to do just one cool thing.

Dropbox is too edgy, okay? There's security issues, right? Evernote, what, right? But what's something that's quote cool but that's still safe and edgy?

And I think Aaron, and maybe he doesn't think about it this way, I think he's done an amazing job of keeping a very boring product cool, but not totally crossing the line, and being aspirational, not just for his employees, but for his customers. This is, I want to do something cool.

Right. My life is so boring. So if I can do something boring called enterprise content management, and have it be the most enterprise and trustworthy and be cool, that's a triangulation I don't think I've seen anyone else do.

Fred: Yeah. That's a great point.

Jason: And maybe if he was fifty, he would have had to do it differently, right? But it fit well with him and therefore was authentic.

Fred: So this authenticity is a hugely important thing for you when it comes to

Jason: I think you have to learn it, to answer your question before. Yeah, right. So honesty and authenticity are not the same thing.

Right? Transparency and authenticity are not the same thing. A lot of us as founders, not all of us, but a lot of us have high EQ, we care about our people, and we tend to be relatively transparent.

Maybe we're not sharing we're out of money tomorrow, but we're fairly transparent, we're fairly genuine, right? But that's not authentic. That's my blog with 800 views over five years, right?

Authentic is truly sharing from the heart, around something that ideally is important to other people. And that I think is learned.

I think you can be, I think if you have high EQ, I think eventually you can figure something out here, right?

If you care and you have a passion around, you'll figure it out. But it may take you three or four years to figure out what you're authentic about.

Where There's One, There's Two

Fred: Right. And so that's the thing which I just forgot, which I also wanted to ask about. I think a problem that I have with social media is I'm just impatient.

You know, and I've watched you on Twitter, and you were a thousand followers a year ago or something like that. And now you're, I have no idea how many, presumably 10x that at least. And that's that kind of growth curve that all of us obsess over when it comes to our companies, but that same kind of growth pattern happens in terms of your reach on social media as well.

Jason: And so you do want to know the trick? It's the same trick that you and I talked about when we met. It's the same thing that Nicolas from Algolia and I spoke about when we were here together. Where there's one, there's ten. Where there's one, there's two.

So if you've been doing Medium for a year and you have 50 views a month with kick-ass content, Medium's just, like, you can hire some consultants and contractors, but it's not gonna work for you.

But if you can get a few people to engage with something, if you can get a few people to engage with you on Quora or Twitter or your blog or Product Hunt or Reddit or whatever it is, or you kill it on Hacker News.

If you can get some people, then you can get twice as many people. So if you can get 10, you can get 20. If you can get 20, you can get 40.

And whenever I meet with early stage SaaS, the reason I invested in you, growing like 0% at the time we met after two years out of YC, it sounds like an idiot's investment, but I saw the where there's one, there's two, right? And I knew some of your customers were great and I knew your product had gotten better. And I knew if you got one PlanGrid, and you had a bunch of customers, but you had one PlanGrid or Zenefits or Betterworks, I knew you could get another one. And I knew if one or two of them were paying a high ACV, you get another.

So my learning from all this is, you know, experiment as in everything and find what's a fit for you and don't force it. And if you have even a smidge of success, focus on what works and just abandon all the other stuff, right? If you're enterprise, don't try and do a freemium strategy with no freemium customers, or the flip side. It's really all the same thing.

And I didn't even understand what Twitter was until like twelve months ago. And now I have a lot of fun on Twitter, right? What is Twitter? Twitter, if you tune it right, is an amazing way to have real-time engagement with the community.

Right? You can really talk with thousands and thousands of people together in real time. And at least that's the way my Twitter set up. And I don't know any other way to do that.

Right? We'll do this podcast and I'm gonna help promote it and hopefully we'll get about 50,000 listeners. But it's certainly not real time. And but if you, I think if you watch the most engaged people on Twitter, they have the, and they set up, they have this magic moment where you can do a one-to-many real-time conversation, and that's impossible to do.

Right. You do an AMA, and when I've done AMAs, you're like flooded with a thousand questions. You can't have any engagement. You basically have to fake the questions because if you get a thousand questions in an hour, like you're dead.

But Twitter is special because if you get it just right, you can have a many-to-many or a few-to-many conversation that is authentic.

Fred: So in the remaining few minutes, let's talk about why you don't do tweetstorms.

Jason: It's actually, you know what it is? It's this ROI thing, right? I just want to focus, it's like what I want you to do, right? I mean, you don't need anything from me.

I want to focus on what works. So if I have double-digit growth per month, I don't want to learn anything new. I don't want to get into a tweetstorm. I don't want to figure out what tool makes tweetstorms better.

I don't want to figure out how to do anything. I don't want to figure out Medium.

I don't even want to figure out how to, you know what? I don't even want to figure out how be a better investor. All I want to do is invest in more Rainforests and Algolias and Talkdesks and Logicals. I don't even want to do any better.

Okay. I'm convinced with the cohort of companies that I've done in the last one, I'll do 10x. Okay, that's, I'm a simple man. That's good enough for me. So the answer is, it's again, there's a point, like in SaaS at like 10 million ARR, start experimenting for real.

Have a few extra guys, experiment on a new vertical, a new product extension. From two to ten, if you experiment, I'm gonna take you out back and shoot you. You just gotta get up that hill, right?

At 100 million ARR, you can actually start building entire new functions and product lines, right? But I'm not there yet. So I want to still go up this hill, and so I don't want to learn anything new. I just want to refine, rinse, you know, repeat and wash, and that's all I want to do. It's good enough.

Scaling the Culture

Fred: Okay, and now a final wild card. Ask me anything, AMA.

Jason: Well, so what's your biggest fear when you hit ten million? What's your biggest scaling worry? From now until, yeah, you're in the seven figures of revenue now, right?

It took you two years out in the boonies building a product, hanging out at Heavybit, being cool, the boonies of Mantis. Growing, having nitro beers down the street. And all of a sudden, and it's not all of a sudden, right? It's like Slack. Slack's a seven-year overnight success story, right?

But now it's clicking. There's a lot of work to do. So what haunts you or worries you toward the end of next year, right?

You're not gonna, the company's not gonna fail. Right? What keeps you up at night?

Fred: Definitely the culture thing. Definitely. And by the culture thing I mean, we already see, so we're twenty-one people right now and we've just about doubled in slightly over a quarter in terms of headcount.

Jason: And you'll have a hundred at the end of next year minimum.

Fred: Yeah. According to my hiring plan. In a spreadsheet. But you already start to see how ten people or even twenty, everyone knows what everyone else is doing.

There is few enough people in the team that everyone knows each other and knows each other enough to confront each other if they don't like what the other person is doing. Resentments don't simmer behind the scenes.

Teams have, you know, active aggressive encounters and resolve their differences like that. And you know, like from our cohort in YC.

Jason: You're still a family. Big enough, you're just not too big that you're no longer a family, right? You're still a family.

Fred: And so I have absolutely no idea and very few references to how one, you know, five X's the company headcount and maintains that kind of feeling. And I don't even know if that's possible.

And so honestly that's what I worry about. Like I think that if we keep executing at the kind of scale and level that we have until today, for at least, you know, the last twelve months, we can get to ten million.

But I think the question is what will the character be of the company at that point. Because, you know, frankly, it's like I don't really want to work at a company where the culture feels transactional and corporate and bullshitty, you know? And so I guess

Jason: And so you'd let that happen? You don't feel like as CEO you have control over that?

Fred: Yeah, it's a good question. It's a good question. It's definitely something I spend a lot of time thinking about. I guess we should revisit it in a year when we're at 10 mil.

Jason: Yeah, it's a good answer though.

Fred: Thank you very much, Jason.

Jason: Yeah, thanks, Fred. Thanks to Heavybit.

Fred: Thanks for listening to Zero To Won. Find me on Twitter @fredsters_s. To learn more about Heavybit, visit heavybit.com, and while you're there, I would go into their library and check out some of the recordings of their speaker series program, where amazing founders get into real detail about how they went from zero to one.