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Almost sold out [Sep 24] Long-Horizon Stack conference feat Hex, Baseten, and more","https://luma.com/long-horizon-stack?utm_source=heavybit_site&utm_medium=banner","headerNavLinks",[146,163,173,186,212],{"_20":147,"_148":149,"_28":23,"_30":159,"_160":161,"_32":162},"a8d641babed2","dropdown",[150,152,157],{"_20":151,"_28":36,"_30":37,"_32":38},"964627410473",{"_20":153,"_28":154,"_30":155,"_32":156},"3d279775d73b","FAQ","/faq","Navigate to FAQ page",{"_20":158,"_28":41,"_30":42,"_32":43},"84e68f9f5c33","/about","mobileOnly",false,"Navigate to about page",{"_20":164,"_148":165,"_28":29,"_30":31,"_160":161,"_32":33},"90b68b861c06",[166,171],{"_20":167,"_28":168,"_30":169,"_32":170},"d481fcbbd3af","Spotlights","/portfolio/spotlights","Navigate to spotlights 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Developer ",{"_20":408,"_90":271,"_272":409,"_141":411},"7aa3b54f64f6",[410],"a50030cc5b04","Vitali Avagyan",{"_20":413,"_90":271,"_272":414,"_141":415},"a0f94686e2c4",[]," asserts that the key to understanding code, particularly code across different languages, is to stop thinking of it as lines of plain text, and to treat it as a relational graph, which is the basis of his open-source project ",{"_20":417,"_90":271,"_272":418,"_141":420},"c66f9ef7a776",[419],"b6ce27c00ce8","code-graph-rag",{"_20":422,"_90":271,"_272":423,"_141":424},"c24ce7265e1d",[],".",[426,428],{"_20":410,"_90":30,"_396":427},"https://www.linkedin.com/in/vitali-avagyan-a1566234/",{"_20":419,"_90":30,"_396":429},"https://github.com/vitali87/code-graph-rag",{"_20":431,"_90":127,"_92":432},"c9d37b6922a5",{"_94":433,"_90":96},"image-bc24d7b1e62740bb7448a1a80a9dfd59940c68d6-3840x1100-jpg",{"_20":435,"_90":266,"_267":436,"_275":447,"_277":278},"b80310699127",[437,442],{"_20":438,"_90":271,"_272":439,"_141":441},"a0931bc06a15",[440],"em","Vitali Avagyan discusses using GraphRAG to parse repos with Memgraph. Image courtesy ",{"_20":443,"_90":271,"_272":444,"_141":446},"5ef047d4ccf9",[445,440],"5b72c578e5d1","Memgraph",[448],{"_20":445,"_90":30,"_396":449},"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2jUTq6nCEY",{"_20":451,"_90":266,"_267":452,"_275":457,"_277":368},"2fc0e81b9ef7",[453],{"_20":454,"_90":271,"_272":455,"_141":456},"4cb4e6406d24",[],"Viewing Code as a Retrievable Graph",[],{"_20":459,"_90":266,"_267":460,"_275":474,"_277":278},"c357da4c0347",[461,465,470],{"_20":462,"_90":271,"_272":463,"_141":464},"b42b4a2c8abb",[],"Avagyan notes that when you hand a codebase to one of today’s coding assistants, it’ll often treat it as a text artifact. “Then, it traverses the code base with a ",{"_20":466,"_90":271,"_272":467,"_141":469},"683e39e682aa",[468],"67f4fbd2fe9a","grep",{"_20":471,"_90":271,"_272":472,"_141":473},"7de49dd818b7",[]," or possibly some kind of agentic search. As you might imagine, that can become inefficient, especially considering some of the questions you might typically have about a codebase.”",[475],{"_20":468,"_90":30,"_396":476},"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grep",{"_20":478,"_90":266,"_267":479,"_275":493,"_277":278},"6bfeff21d7b3",[480,484,489],{"_20":481,"_90":271,"_272":482,"_141":483},"2814a2a422f6",[],"The creator gives the example of asking an agent to find the longest nested function call in your codebase. Today’s agents will search through the imports and invocations and do some counting, a task that LLMs aren’t great at. “But if you already have a graph that represents all core relationships between methods and functions, you or an AI agent can just write a ",{"_20":485,"_90":271,"_272":486,"_141":488},"fd7434afa3fb",[487],"40d5a9d1fab0","Cypher",{"_20":490,"_90":271,"_272":491,"_141":492},"850209620fae",[]," query that will calculate it for you in milliseconds.” The creator suggests that treating codebases as graphs in this way can conserve both tokens and time.",[494],{"_20":487,"_90":30,"_396":495},"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypher_(query_language)",{"_20":497,"_90":266,"_267":498,"_275":503,"_277":278},"8edb1e48b5a2",[499],{"_20":500,"_90":271,"_272":501,"_141":502},"b5cb7e6813d4",[],"The creator clarifies, “that doesn't mean you should use [text] or [graphs] exclusively. They can be used in conjunction with each other. You can have grep, other types of search, and graph search together. Then, given that the AI has both contexts, it will decide which way to go.”",[],{"_20":505,"_90":266,"_267":506,"_275":511,"_277":278},"55289533b05a",[507],{"_20":508,"_90":271,"_272":509,"_141":510},"494b6d9eb54a",[],"The creator suggests that the project specifically addresses the dichotomy between graph search and traditional text search/grep. “The first part of the project is how you go from code to graph. The second is an assistant that has a context of a graph, but it also has all the tools that typical coding agents or harnesses have. I also use it alongside my other coding harnesses. For some problems, it can find solutions faster and more accurately.”",[],{"_20":513,"_90":266,"_267":514,"_275":519,"_277":368},"cc2e0c67c8ad",[515],{"_20":516,"_90":271,"_272":517,"_141":518},"a7a96359e940",[],"Accounting for Variation Across Languages, Frameworks",[],{"_20":521,"_90":266,"_267":522,"_275":545,"_277":278},"755c01bddb6f",[523,527,532,536,541],{"_20":524,"_90":271,"_272":525,"_141":526},"8cfad1aaed2e",[],"The creator clarifies that precisely mapping codebases to graphs requires a correct build for each framework and programming language. “Even with an underlying technology like ",{"_20":528,"_90":271,"_272":529,"_141":531},"c4f79c67c17a",[530],"d7c41e85c164","Tree-sitter",{"_20":533,"_90":271,"_272":534,"_141":535},"2d414b50c68b",[],", which parses the ",{"_20":537,"_90":271,"_272":538,"_141":540},"ecb02d6d29a7",[539],"249727404c78","abstract syntax tree",{"_20":542,"_90":271,"_272":543,"_141":544},"916d54525867",[]," and gives you all the syntactic relationships, it's not still enough because there’s so much variety between languages and frameworks.”",[546,548],{"_20":530,"_90":30,"_396":547},"https://tree-sitter.github.io/tree-sitter/",{"_20":539,"_90":30,"_396":549},"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_syntax_tree",{"_20":551,"_90":266,"_267":552,"_275":557,"_277":278},"4b92136c2a79",[553],{"_20":554,"_90":271,"_272":555,"_141":556},"916fbfa96bd2",[],"Avagyan’s approach was to unify the variety within a single graph ontology that worked across multiple languages, from which he designed the project to let users map relationships within a monorepo, even those that contain multiple languages (the project currently supports more than a dozen). With such precise relationships properly mapped, users can use Cypher or another query language (or some sort of tool to map natural language to a query language) to query any part of a codebase as a graph, and compare against semantic search.",[],{"_20":559,"_90":266,"_267":560,"_275":565,"_277":278},"a36ee5a77fd2",[561],{"_20":562,"_90":271,"_272":563,"_141":564},"b5e47a104baa",[],"“Obviously, this has lots of benefits. If you ask a question about a specific function or a service with semantic search, it looks at the vector similarity and brings you some functions, some of which may have relevant names, but may not be relevant to your actual query. But using graphs, if you can translate your intent into Cypher (with the help of AI), you can basically pinpoint which function you are looking for.” The creator clarifies that the project also supports semantic search as an add-on to support things like code comments, and that in practice, graph parsing and semantic search tend to be complementary.",[],{"_20":567,"_90":266,"_267":568,"_275":573,"_277":368},"6154d54ed4e6",[569],{"_20":570,"_90":271,"_272":571,"_141":572},"1641bec46e7a",[],"Making Code Graphs Deterministic with AST",[],{"_20":575,"_90":266,"_267":576,"_275":581,"_277":278},"0815be5d9aee",[577],{"_20":578,"_90":271,"_272":579,"_141":580},"6ea22a083826",[],"As he sought to ensure the project yielded reliable graph representations, Avagyan found that asking LLMs to one-shot graph representations didn’t quite work. “[The LLMs] hallucinated some relationship edges and nodes. So, the project uses Tree-sitter parsers for different languages, which give you the basic relationships you can extract from AST as something of a unified way of using any type of language.”",[],{"_20":583,"_90":266,"_267":584,"_275":598,"_277":278},"4ed1d30f3dc2",[585,589,594],{"_20":586,"_90":271,"_272":587,"_141":588},"9a4ee9a258b2",[],"“Obviously, there are so many considerations when you go into specifics, like finding call relationships. Each language has its own specific intricacies, like how ",{"_20":590,"_90":271,"_272":591,"_141":593},"e56a902ff095",[592],"1b1e54e0707e","polymorphism",{"_20":595,"_90":271,"_272":596,"_141":597},"9b109a84fb06",[]," works.” The creator notes that tracking all the nuances isn’t necessarily covered by existing deterministic open-source tools either. What is even more difficult is the runtime behavior of the code. That's why recent efforts have been placed to trace call relationships apparent at runtime and merge them into the same graph with statically-derived ones.”",[599],{"_20":592,"_90":30,"_396":600},"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymorphism_(computer_science)",{"_20":602,"_90":266,"_267":603,"_275":617,"_277":278},"9b53b53a2ef7",[604,608,613],{"_20":605,"_90":271,"_272":606,"_141":607},"84140f1e533e",[],"“And from there, we run thousands of test cases to ensure there are no regressions every time a new functionality is added. Every new functionality or bugfix is accompanied by a handful of new tests.” The creator suggests the project continuously runs more than 7,000 unit/integration tests using ",{"_20":609,"_90":271,"_272":610,"_141":612},"a90a0f3ba6d2",[611],"cb676615c060","red/green test-driven development",{"_20":614,"_90":271,"_272":615,"_141":616},"a3e38bb4ef42",[],". Over time, the combination of hand-built code and agent-powered testing and development has proven to be effective. “At the beginning, I spent so much time on architecting [the project], setting the right relationships, that sort of thing, to ensure the foundation was ‘right.’ But when the foundation is ‘right,’ AI is great at doing the rest.”",[618],{"_20":611,"_90":30,"_396":619},"https://simonwillison.net/guides/agentic-engineering-patterns/red-green-tdd/",{"_20":621,"_90":266,"_267":622,"_275":627,"_277":368},"e71e561bda30",[623],{"_20":624,"_90":271,"_272":625,"_141":626},"8bfe3199c316",[],"Bottlenecks and Resource Management",[],{"_20":629,"_90":266,"_267":630,"_275":635,"_277":278},"2e27e83e6ea0",[631],{"_20":632,"_90":271,"_272":633,"_141":634},"b4e8f24bb41b",[],"The creator suggests that the project is continuing to improve on traditional challenges in graph-based projects, which have historically not always been particularly responsive. “I would say storage has never been a problem. With this project, I spent significant time optimizing the build process of going from codebase to graph. (I actually optimised the build time by more than 5x with a separate repo I built that optimizes user-defined codebase segments against specific metrics like speed within accepted memory constraints. The agent then \"autosearches\" the best code among competing candidates while running the build against the ground-truthed evaluation cases which you or your agents have collected or constructed yourself.)”",[],{"_20":637,"_90":266,"_267":638,"_275":660,"_277":278},"d8236069c0ba",[639,643,648,652,656],{"_20":640,"_90":271,"_272":641,"_141":642},"37e4c8419854",[],"“I would say that a practical use of code-graph-rag is ",{"_20":644,"_90":271,"_272":645,"_141":647},"0f95656bd1a7",[646],"ec14de8b6db9","dead code detection",{"_20":649,"_90":271,"_272":650,"_141":651},"28ed3f1a3a15",[],". If you have vibe coded your repo, or it’s otherwise in a state that you don't know exactly what's happening because there are so many abstractions or code duplications, or that code isn’t reachable. For example, there is a ",{"_20":653,"_90":271,"_272":654,"_141":655},"cba21817906a",[440],"code graph",{"_20":657,"_90":271,"_272":658,"_141":659},"2dd3e29f6f5e",[]," command that will check the reachability of all your code. If some are not reachable, they’re likely candidates [for being dead code and potentially getting deleted].”",[661],{"_20":646,"_90":30,"_396":662},"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead-code_elimination",{"_20":664,"_90":266,"_267":665,"_275":678,"_277":278},"623b0301e0bf",[666,670,674],{"_20":667,"_90":271,"_272":668,"_141":669},"c9fdbc40e4d6",[],"“Otherwise, I don't think storage is a problem. The project uses ",{"_20":671,"_90":271,"_272":672,"_141":446},"34da333815d3",[673],"c1ed526f5769",{"_20":675,"_90":271,"_272":676,"_141":677},"da89921f17d9",[]," as a GraphDB and it's really fast, it runs in memory and you can deploy using Docker containers, and that would be enough to deploy locally, and the project has the building blocks for bigger deployments to the cloud. So far, it seems to scale well (people have even graphed the Linux kernel) and I haven’t seen any real degradation in speed when it comes to querying graphs.”",[679],{"_20":673,"_90":30,"_396":680},"https://memgraph.com/",{"_20":682,"_90":266,"_267":683,"_275":696,"_277":278},"824172ebddac",[684,688,692],{"_20":685,"_90":271,"_272":686,"_141":687},"7cdd05898655",[],"Avagyan notes that some users come to the project looking for performance and cost gains as well. “Some people claim that the project is as much as 65% more cost-efficient than traditional agentic coding and search, and I can’t verify those numbers myself. I ",{"_20":689,"_90":271,"_272":690,"_141":691},"36ec44554375",[440],"can",{"_20":693,"_90":271,"_272":694,"_141":695},"e051511f75df",[]," say that I’ve observed the project to be very fast, and it seems more fault-tolerant in a way.”",[],{"_20":698,"_90":266,"_267":699,"_275":704,"_277":278},"2cfb4c4a9a81",[700],{"_20":701,"_90":271,"_272":702,"_141":703},"b8c18965ccb1",[],"“Let’s say the project fails in one Cypher query? Then it can just repeat it, and with that query, you can gain lots of context up front, very fast. And that failure is less costly compared to if AI were to go and perform its own search, realize it was searching in the wrong place, then go to another place...you can imagine how things would accumulate really fast.”",[],{"_20":706,"_90":266,"_267":707,"_275":712,"_277":278},"6a4ddfd50139",[708],{"_20":709,"_90":271,"_272":710,"_141":711},"847581b898f9",[],"“To be honest, the goal of the project was never cost reduction, but I think it’s a byproduct, since you get the accuracy of a graph and the accuracy of an MCP and agent to invoke the correct tools to query the graph.",[],{"_20":714,"_90":266,"_267":715,"_275":720,"_277":368},"06fc03e6d208",[716],{"_20":717,"_90":271,"_272":718,"_141":719},"0743e3b412d6",[],"Real-World Use Cases for Graphing a Codebase",[],{"_20":722,"_90":266,"_267":723,"_275":728,"_277":278},"34664692f09c",[724],{"_20":725,"_90":271,"_272":726,"_141":727},"2b1eaf954306",[],"The creator calls out onboarding new engineers as a key use case for the project. “People tell me that using the project has significantly reduced onboarding times because it can gather information about different aspects of a monorepo codebase and give that directly to new junior engineers.”",[],{"_20":730,"_90":266,"_267":731,"_275":736,"_277":278},"a9bdfd671d83",[732],{"_20":733,"_90":271,"_272":734,"_141":735},"b0569066d73c",[],"“Since we recently added FLOWS_TO, READS_FROM and WRITES_TO relationships in a graph, it’s now easy to analyze the relationships between microservices in your codebase as well. (I’ve actually been approached by security companies about using the project for security detection use cases across large codebases, which is a natural fit as tracing how data moves through a system is exactly what those relationships capture.)”",[],{"_20":738,"_90":266,"_267":739,"_275":744,"_277":278},"e96ed7f2d62e",[740],{"_20":741,"_90":271,"_272":742,"_141":743},"e4b2c56f631d",[],"So you can see why companies are adopting the project as part of their onboarding tools. You could use it as an MCP server in Claude Code or any other harness or just use Cypher queries to search your codebase before even starting any agentic exploration. This approach is quick and gives you a really good grasp of a codebase, without getting sidetracked to other areas that may not be as important.”",[],{"_20":746,"_90":266,"_267":747,"_275":770,"_277":278},"b003dd295bbf",[748,752,757,761,766],{"_20":749,"_90":271,"_272":750,"_141":751},"2a8e4e8ba899",[],"Avagyan notes growing interest among teams managing heavyweight ERP systems with some flavor of Python, as well as ongoing requests around app development. “",{"_20":753,"_90":271,"_272":754,"_141":756},"fc85ec3d18b6",[755],"fc884ca87ef9","Dart",{"_20":758,"_90":271,"_272":759,"_141":760},"cee0616ee44a",[]," is already supported and includes ",{"_20":762,"_90":271,"_272":763,"_141":765},"ab660c7a1ffd",[764],"eb5b74dd23fd","Flutter",{"_20":767,"_90":271,"_272":768,"_141":769},"b630193673be",[]," widget structure.”",[771,773],{"_20":755,"_90":30,"_396":772},"https://dart.dev/overview",{"_20":764,"_90":30,"_396":774},"https://flutter.dev/",{"_20":776,"_90":266,"_267":777,"_275":782,"_277":368},"5a3ea8acd83b",[778],{"_20":779,"_90":271,"_272":780,"_141":781},"1cd77c6dd0f6",[],"Why Aren’t Enterprises Already Graphing Their Codebases?",[],{"_20":784,"_90":266,"_267":785,"_275":790,"_277":278},"7cbaec07cf9b",[786],{"_20":787,"_90":271,"_272":788,"_141":789},"52c6bc34d2b2",[],"The creator suggests that graphing codebases is a useful approach for any organization, but the timing might not be quite right for large-scale enterprises that are slow to embrace change. “I believe many companies, including major AI vendors like Cursor or Anthropic, have been experimenting with graph-based approaches, if not for codebase mapping, then for use cases like memory management.”",[],{"_20":792,"_90":266,"_267":793,"_275":798,"_277":278},"a89686ddcbd7",[794],{"_20":795,"_90":271,"_272":796,"_141":797},"eb00873aac4a",[],"Avagyan notes that those companies may be hitting a stumbling block. “I think one problem companies may be having is accuracy.”",[],{"_20":800,"_90":266,"_267":801,"_275":806,"_277":278},"f2f91f55c9c2",[802],{"_20":803,"_90":271,"_272":804,"_141":805},"5556895009c6",[],"“You can get really far with one language, maybe with a toy example using a tool like Tree-sitter. But jobs that require you to unify graphs across different languages, and build usable and accurate relationships over top of them, and making sure it can work at scale, that’s different. For example, a monorepo is a living creature that changes every minute: People commit and delete code and so on. So your graph needs to keep up with that. It needs to recalculate [those relationships] with every change, every drop, every addition. The project has a graph updater designed specifically to make this real-time syncing possible.”",[],{"_20":808,"_90":266,"_267":809,"_275":814,"_277":278},"526da0bc67f6",[810],{"_20":811,"_90":271,"_272":812,"_141":813},"b5c434461aac",[],"The creator suggests that while he spent the better part of a year building a system that could dynamically map and remap graph representations of codebases without significant latency, not every org is on the same page. “Even doing something like this with AI agents will take some time, and will cost internal resources. And people don’t always have patience for these things and may want to see a one-shot solution instead. But I think the approach will get more momentum and I think many companies will adopt it eventually.”",[],{"_20":816,"_90":266,"_267":817,"_275":822,"_277":368},"05e8e1c9fe0a",[818],{"_20":819,"_90":271,"_272":820,"_141":821},"76872200c049",[],"Learnings from Building",[],{"_20":824,"_90":266,"_267":825,"_275":830,"_277":278},"8c4981547047",[826],{"_20":827,"_90":271,"_272":828,"_141":829},"58335d9df518",[],"When asked what his most important learnings from the project are, Avagyan offers a few suggestions. “One, which I think is most important, is to just build something for yourself that you would like to have. That's pretty much how this project was born. Because I was dealing with [the challenges of managing a] monorepo, and at first, I just wanted to visualize it and understand its complexity. I looked for solutions to see if there was a good product for me. I didn't find one, so I decided I would build it myself, and after releasing it publicly, it turned to be useful for other people.”",[],{"_20":832,"_90":266,"_267":833,"_275":865,"_277":278},"81d7413fc3b2",[834,838,843,847,852,856,861],{"_20":835,"_90":271,"_272":836,"_141":837},"321ac6bc0e40",[],"“Second, I would recommend building things from the perspective of thinking about what you do every day and how you can accelerate what you do and be more performant with your tools.” The creator notes another open-source project of his, ",{"_20":839,"_90":271,"_272":840,"_141":842},"9f8ed6fdab01",[841],"f040745fb71d","Croft",{"_20":844,"_90":271,"_272":845,"_141":846},"630e70cbbe50",[],", as an example. “I’m a VS Code user, but I enjoy terminal as well, so I found myself going back and forth between VS Code, ",{"_20":848,"_90":271,"_272":849,"_141":851},"94d7ac6fa32a",[850],"3f971d287b17","Neovim",{"_20":853,"_90":271,"_272":854,"_141":855},"e76bcfb5a8f3",[],", ",{"_20":857,"_90":271,"_272":858,"_141":860},"93a91dcf4857",[859],"2f238ed440f7","Zed",{"_20":862,"_90":271,"_272":863,"_141":864},"1bb94c846e83",[]," and other alternatives. I found myself thinking there should be a better way, so I built a VS Code clone in the terminal with Rust to make it super-fast. I’ve been using it every day myself and I would recommend others try it out.”",[866,868,870],{"_20":841,"_90":30,"_396":867},"https://github.com/vitali87/croft",{"_20":850,"_90":30,"_396":869},"https://neovim.io/",{"_20":859,"_90":30,"_396":871},"https://zed.dev/",{"_20":873,"_90":266,"_267":874,"_275":897,"_277":278},"6869a525750a",[875,879,884,888,893],{"_20":876,"_90":271,"_272":877,"_141":878},"30637c109bb6",[],"“Finally, I’d recommend finding a distribution channel for your work. Even the greatest product on earth won’t necessarily be noticed if you just put it on GitHub and leave it there. You need to promote it. I was fortunate enough to have worked with the founder of ",{"_20":880,"_90":271,"_272":881,"_141":883},"6424a1b96d65",[882],"48182a105088","Daily Dose of Data Science",{"_20":885,"_90":271,"_272":886,"_141":887},"3954a9df1f48",[]," when I was working on my own startup back in 2023. I got coverage for my product in this popular newsletter, which might have been the trigger that helped it ‘go viral’ on GitHub the first time. That said, I have also tried many other channels like Hacker News, LinkedIn and X posts, giving talks (including this session ",{"_20":889,"_90":271,"_272":890,"_141":892},"6f0d56991c70",[891],"41760ee29615","with Memgraph",{"_20":894,"_90":271,"_272":895,"_141":896},"dd3d4a61f74f",[],"), but eventually, the project started trending again on GitHub organically. I guess it might have to do with the ‘right solution at the right time’ phenomenon.”",[898,900],{"_20":882,"_90":30,"_396":899},"https://blog.dailydoseofds.com/",{"_20":891,"_90":30,"_396":901},"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2jUTq6nCEY&t=2s",{"_20":903,"_90":266,"_267":904,"_275":909,"_277":368},"1d6c6865362e",[905],{"_20":906,"_90":271,"_272":907,"_141":908},"2586e6d9e8b9",[],"The Future of Codebases: Built and Managed by AI?",[],{"_20":911,"_90":266,"_267":912,"_275":917,"_277":278},"ab8bfa185ba6",[913],{"_20":914,"_90":271,"_272":915,"_141":916},"067bce70e73c",[],"From his experience building the project, Avagyan advises anyone working in a technical capacity to learn how to orchestrate. “Software engineering is changing faster than people think. The ability to orchestrate things will be important no matter what. By that, I mean knowing many different technologies: Their strengths and weaknesses, the scalability of each thing, and when to use what.”",[],{"_20":919,"_90":266,"_267":920,"_275":933,"_277":278},"afb3c879f969",[921,925,929],{"_20":922,"_90":271,"_272":923,"_141":924},"49750bd53c8c",[],"“For example, in order to deploy applications at scale, you might need a Kubernetes cluster. You shouldn’t have to be a highly skilled DevOps engineer to know that as AI can help you there, but you would need to know ",{"_20":926,"_90":271,"_272":927,"_141":928},"7f5989d240bd",[440],"when",{"_20":930,"_90":271,"_272":931,"_141":932},"56e7f92d1742",[]," to use it, and what the pros and cons are. That will help you to have this overarching, holistic view of what it's like to build a highly scalable software engineering system.”",[],{"_20":935,"_90":266,"_267":936,"_275":941,"_277":278},"dc75d7ad8097",[937],{"_20":938,"_90":271,"_272":939,"_141":940},"c6a9980c57d2",[],"“You need to understand how the distributed systems work, and the code-graph-rag project fits really well here to help you ask architectural questions and locate potential bottlenecks, like dead code or other opportunities for optimization.”",[],{"_20":943,"_90":266,"_267":944,"_275":957,"_277":278},"628421de9da8",[945,949,953],{"_20":946,"_90":271,"_272":947,"_141":948},"0cc52c592750",[],"“It’s about having this type of ‘systems thinking,’ an understanding of system design architecture and the underlying principles of the technologies. Not just knowing ",{"_20":950,"_90":271,"_272":951,"_141":952},"d4b8c4a82cf1",[440],"what Redis is",{"_20":954,"_90":271,"_272":955,"_141":956},"ad91e713dbfb",[],", but also understanding what caching is and why it’s important. You’re going to need to apply that understanding when you think your system actually needs caching!”",[],{"_20":959,"_90":266,"_267":960,"_275":965,"_277":278},"8eaf5dda166e",[961],{"_20":962,"_90":271,"_272":963,"_141":964},"7fccb285f275",[],"“So I think orchestration will be important for quite some time, because AI is still not at the level of fully, autonomously orchestrating large-scale systems that will work smoothly and without any problems. We are not there yet.”",[],17,"https://cdn.sanity.io/images/50q6fr1p/production/28801f05c737cc57c3c04d467a0a54838fc70ad0-1200x630.png","9d8377ac-25e6-47b7-8e40-22ee9a7cb43e","2026-08-27T16:38:00.000Z","understanding-code-by-treating-it-as-a-graph","Is the Key to Understanding Code Treating it as a Graph?","blogArticle",{"_300":974,"_310":1405,"_127":1406,"_313":1407,"_317":1408,"_319":1409,"_32":1410,"_322":972},[975,983,991,1039,1047,1051,1059,1067,1096,1104,1112,1120,1128,1136,1144,1183,1195,1207,1219,1231,1239,1247,1255,1263,1271,1279,1287,1317,1325,1333,1341,1349,1357,1365,1373,1381,1389,1397],{"_20":976,"_90":266,"_267":977,"_275":982,"_277":368},"9196fa5c1337",[978],{"_20":979,"_90":271,"_272":980,"_141":981},"daa6967db340",[],"The Unique Challenges of Mobile Compute",[],{"_20":984,"_90":266,"_267":985,"_275":990,"_277":278},"76f45bfec570",[986],{"_20":987,"_90":271,"_272":988,"_141":989},"6c276d156142",[],"A significant focus in modern AI has been on large language models with billions of parameters. Billions more parameters mean bigger training investment, and presumably, more-impressive performance. But there are emerging use cases for mobile AI inference, like offline mobile text generation and the rise of general-purpose generative models for edge that hint at a growing need for reliable mobile AI performance.",[],{"_20":992,"_90":266,"_267":993,"_275":1030,"_277":278},"af0f0de9eaae",[994,999,1003,1008,1012,1017,1021,1026],{"_20":995,"_90":271,"_272":996,"_141":998},"bce9edf18932",[997],"01f586bb19c8","Chris Karani",{"_20":1000,"_90":271,"_272":1001,"_141":1002},"669b28ad0b26",[],", a longtime software engineer with specific expertise working in the mobile space, has built a variety of open-source, mobile-specific AI projects like ",{"_20":1004,"_90":271,"_272":1005,"_141":1007},"8b6f89ec9c39",[1006],"dc8c3118f86c","Wax",{"_20":1009,"_90":271,"_272":1010,"_141":1011},"43437631fed2",[]," and ",{"_20":1013,"_90":271,"_272":1014,"_141":1016},"4fbb11a36374",[1015],"4edd5928711b","Swarm",{"_20":1018,"_90":271,"_272":1019,"_141":1020},"e59bd93b5314",[],", and is now focusing on building a mobile-specific monitoring and release-gating platform ",{"_20":1022,"_90":271,"_272":1023,"_141":1025},"aa0cafd1ebca",[1024],"a7fbf0b65b8d","RYNO",{"_20":1027,"_90":271,"_272":1028,"_141":1029},"4ab51806f777",[]," after observing the unique challenges that on-device inference poses to software performance on mobile.",[1031,1033,1035,1037],{"_20":997,"_90":30,"_396":1032},"https://www.linkedin.com/in/chriskarani/",{"_20":1006,"_90":30,"_396":1034},"https://github.com/christopherkarani/Wax",{"_20":1015,"_90":30,"_396":1036},"https://github.com/christopherkarani/Swarm",{"_20":1024,"_90":30,"_396":1038},"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yL9lcmvSs7o",{"_20":1040,"_90":266,"_267":1041,"_275":1046,"_277":278},"6a7d245a9398",[1042],{"_20":1043,"_90":271,"_272":1044,"_141":1045},"d215b9275145",[],"Below, he explains why mobile inference needs a new breed of observability, and why on-device inference may necessitate a different way to think about app development: At the edge, moving inference on-device effectively introduces a variety of new hardware-specific variables, such as device generations, OS versions, and thermal and memory constraints.",[],{"_20":1048,"_90":127,"_92":1049},"68822d00ffc2",{"_94":1050,"_90":96},"image-1dd5e966858d3cb95946cf1b3d940b1c92f2c46a-2030x554-png",{"_20":1052,"_90":266,"_267":1053,"_275":1058,"_277":278},"23fa169cb01d",[1054],{"_20":1055,"_90":271,"_272":1056,"_141":1057},"57f6112d5429",[440],"The RYNO dashboard specifically monitors on-device inference.",[],{"_20":1060,"_90":266,"_267":1061,"_275":1066,"_277":368},"5d05e23e9ffc",[1062],{"_20":1063,"_90":271,"_272":1064,"_141":1065},"d169649fc0a1",[],"How Traditional Observability Can’t Cover AI at the Edge",[],{"_20":1068,"_90":266,"_267":1069,"_275":1091,"_277":278},"1e42fff1e07f",[1070,1074,1079,1082,1087],{"_20":1071,"_90":271,"_272":1072,"_141":1073},"c4f86ecd4a57",[],"Karani explains that as a builder in the mobile space, he initially relied on popular tools like ",{"_20":1075,"_90":271,"_272":1076,"_141":1078},"471e6fe7b6f2",[1077],"f7f739690c4b","LangFuse",{"_20":1080,"_90":271,"_272":1081,"_141":1011},"4d633666c652",[],{"_20":1083,"_90":271,"_272":1084,"_141":1086},"a54412f6e2d3",[1085],"f42d14678a11","LangSmith",{"_20":1088,"_90":271,"_272":1089,"_141":1090},"ad6e4e5ad7b2",[]," for observability, but found that neither provided the monitoring coverage his projects needed. He found himself building RYNO, a flight recorder and release gate for AI in production on mobile, which focuses on privacy, safe execution traces from real devices, and turning production failures into regression tests to improve future releases.",[1092,1094],{"_20":1077,"_90":30,"_396":1093},"https://langfuse.com/",{"_20":1085,"_90":30,"_396":1095},"https://www.langchain.com/langsmith-platform",{"_20":1097,"_90":266,"_267":1098,"_275":1103,"_277":278},"4a79b7587c7b",[1099],{"_20":1100,"_90":271,"_272":1101,"_141":1102},"f0af90a0db90",[],"“The project combines the hardware state with the end AI behavior to let teams debug and figure out why model failures happen when the apps are actually in production,” the founder explains. As an example, Karani cites a team he spoke with whose mobile app that identifies plants out in the wild and diagnoses them for issues.",[],{"_20":1105,"_90":266,"_267":1106,"_275":1111,"_277":278},"f8c80b58c7b7",[1107],{"_20":1108,"_90":271,"_272":1109,"_141":1110},"756f14956665",[],"Over time, the app team noticed negative reviews in the App Store from frustrated users who found the app misidentifying plants, but when the app’s developers conducted the same tests internally, they noticed no errors. “What they didn't realize was that a lot of their users were out using their apps in high ambient temperatures. This causes a variety of issues that the existing tools just couldn't catch.”",[],{"_20":1113,"_90":266,"_267":1114,"_275":1119,"_277":278},"73f032e4b7e8",[1115],{"_20":1116,"_90":271,"_272":1117,"_141":1118},"4a033185569e",[],"“For instance, once inference is running on a phone in production, changes in thermal state, memory pressure, and available compute can change how that workload performs in production. You can see slower execution, memory-related failures, or different behavior from what you saw during testing. RYNO comes in and is able to combine the hardware state with the model output and help teams debug why their models are failing when they're out into production.”",[],{"_20":1121,"_90":266,"_267":1122,"_275":1127,"_277":368},"cc837e4097a6",[1123],{"_20":1124,"_90":271,"_272":1125,"_141":1126},"4be7b5ebf70f",[],"Closing the Loop for Mobile: Ragequitting, UX, and Regressions",[],{"_20":1129,"_90":266,"_267":1130,"_275":1135,"_277":278},"ac1a98cd7c62",[1131],{"_20":1132,"_90":271,"_272":1133,"_141":1134},"cb6169cdaa7e",[],"For consumer-level mobile applications, this type of failure can lead to the ultimate cost: Users ragequitting the app and immediately deleting it. While the founder’s aim is eventually to target optimization opportunities for any edge computing setup, he admits that mobile is his current focus. “In mobile, most apps have a high uninstall rate.”",[],{"_20":1137,"_90":266,"_267":1138,"_275":1143,"_277":278},"09e3da705404",[1139],{"_20":1140,"_90":271,"_272":1141,"_141":1142},"bb84bfa9efca",[],"To avoid grossly inaccurate outputs due to hallucinations, Karani explains that his platform runs AI jobs across five stages: Capture, explain, replay, promote, and release.",[],{"_20":1145,"_90":266,"_267":1146,"_1174":1175,"_1176":1177,"_275":1178,"_277":278},"a3c417f4e89a",[1147,1152,1156,1161,1165,1170],{"_20":1148,"_90":271,"_272":1149,"_141":1151},"14fdc7cba99a",[1150],"strong","Capture:",{"_20":1153,"_90":271,"_272":1154,"_141":1155},"aa00c58d638c",[]," Utilizing the open-source, lightweight, privacy-centric ",{"_20":1157,"_90":271,"_272":1158,"_141":1160},"62c5efc259aa",[1159],"39f4350f1285","Terra SDK",{"_20":1162,"_90":271,"_272":1163,"_141":1164},"faaca851a04b",[],", which can be embedded into mobile apps, and is built on ",{"_20":1166,"_90":271,"_272":1167,"_141":1169},"2b5210b4a320",[1168],"12ed0e79639f","open telemetry",{"_20":1171,"_90":271,"_272":1172,"_141":1173},"1cf657c9feb9",[]," to prevent vendor lock-in, and records OS version, memory pressure, thermal state, and records OS version, memory pressure, thermal state, device class, and the compute resources involved in inference, such as CPU, GPU, or Neural Engine where available","level",1,"listItem","bullet",[1179,1181],{"_20":1159,"_90":30,"_396":1180},"https://github.com/tryterra/terra-react",{"_20":1168,"_90":30,"_396":1182},"https://opentelemetry.io",{"_20":1184,"_90":266,"_267":1185,"_1174":1175,"_1176":1177,"_275":1194,"_277":278},"6bfe8b8aa55b",[1186,1190],{"_20":1187,"_90":271,"_272":1188,"_141":1189},"531d8bfb8a6c",[1150],"Explain:",{"_20":1191,"_90":271,"_272":1192,"_141":1193},"102c1b804637",[]," Utilizing the local macOS app’s ability to plot a visual timeline of device physics and model execution, identifying factors like correlating changes in device state with changes in model execution",[],{"_20":1196,"_90":266,"_267":1197,"_1174":1175,"_1176":1177,"_275":1206,"_277":278},"16a216eace7b",[1198,1202],{"_20":1199,"_90":271,"_272":1200,"_141":1201},"005091edab91",[1150],"Replay:",{"_20":1203,"_90":271,"_272":1204,"_141":1205},"6e1f8d5da353",[]," Having captured structured metadata, template IDs, token counts, and the precise physical hardware context at the time of errors, developers can use a replay button to recreate the conditions surrounding the failure to artificially reproduce the same environmental stress for testing purposes",[],{"_20":1208,"_90":266,"_267":1209,"_1174":1175,"_1176":1177,"_275":1218,"_277":278},"64a94ff32346",[1210,1214],{"_20":1211,"_90":271,"_272":1212,"_141":1213},"c2cb193596ec",[1150],"Promote:",{"_20":1215,"_90":271,"_272":1216,"_141":1217},"057867fa95b8",[]," Teams can turn a one-off production failure into a structured, repeatable evaluation",[],{"_20":1220,"_90":266,"_267":1221,"_1174":1175,"_1176":1177,"_275":1230,"_277":278},"523186127ddd",[1222,1226],{"_20":1223,"_90":271,"_272":1224,"_141":1225},"3f0388696f60",[1150],"Release:",{"_20":1227,"_90":271,"_272":1228,"_141":1229},"3802f3236628",[]," From here, the platform connects to a team CI/CD pipeline to run various evaluations on different devices with that specific eval case prior to the next app release to prevent further regressions before they make it to production",[],{"_20":1232,"_90":266,"_267":1233,"_275":1238,"_277":278},"88dd59afe227",[1234],{"_20":1235,"_90":271,"_272":1236,"_141":1237},"6cf15725e554",[],"The founder adds: “A lot of these issues also come in simple OS updates. Everything was working fine, then Apple launches a new update that introduces unexpected changes. And sometimes getting that stress test when you're testing within a controlled environment is difficult. So a lot of these issues can only be caught when the AI is actually ‘out in the wild.’”",[],{"_20":1240,"_90":266,"_267":1241,"_275":1246,"_277":278},"a4d61e87b83e",[1242],{"_20":1243,"_90":271,"_272":1244,"_141":1245},"c63132c0118c",[],"“Sometimes you have to actually catch these failures once they're actually already out there because these systems are so non deterministic. They're not like traditional, deterministic software where you might have a really tight unit test case, so certain errors don’t reach production.”",[],{"_20":1248,"_90":266,"_267":1249,"_275":1254,"_277":278},"51f37cb77d65",[1250],{"_20":1251,"_90":271,"_272":1252,"_141":1253},"9098f81dfbb7",[],"“Because there's 100 million ways that the AI can actually fail. So, one of the best approaches is having this sort of loop that we've created to catch them quickly in production and ensure that they don't persist in the future.”",[],{"_20":1256,"_90":266,"_267":1257,"_275":1262,"_277":368},"6e814b0ff721",[1258],{"_20":1259,"_90":271,"_272":1260,"_141":1261},"07bb1c6dbf0f",[],"Building for Privacy and Memory Optimization",[],{"_20":1264,"_90":266,"_267":1265,"_275":1270,"_277":278},"564424a3cff6",[1266],{"_20":1267,"_90":271,"_272":1268,"_141":1269},"4c7d752edc34",[],"Karani explains that privacy was a key part of the project due to its initial focus on iOS. “We believe that the on-device AI on iOS is some of the best in the world right now. The Apple Neural Engine lets users run these really awesome models. But for iOS and mobile users, privacy is very important. It’s common even for experienced teams to accidentally violate user privacy while trying to collect the debugging context they desperately need.”",[],{"_20":1272,"_90":266,"_267":1273,"_275":1278,"_277":278},"1d35f785606e",[1274],{"_20":1275,"_90":271,"_272":1276,"_141":1277},"8a890a6f2be8",[],"“This is how teams are silently trying to capture model regression with internal tooling. They captured a prompt and its output, and those contain extremely sensitive data, so you end up violating user privacy. To fix that for RYNO, we actually have a ‘never log’ list. No screenshots, no user prompts, no contacts lists, no physical addresses, no chat transcripts.”",[],{"_20":1280,"_90":266,"_267":1281,"_275":1286,"_277":278},"846ca4d16b40",[1282],{"_20":1283,"_90":271,"_272":1284,"_141":1285},"8da126fcdaa0",[],"“We use a minimal telemetry schema. Instead of logging what the user has typed, we log a structured shape and the operational health of the mathematical transaction. We've been using a lot of tools to ensure that teams are able to get the metadata that they need to reproduce these failures while still avoiding violations of user privacy in the process. We think this is super-important for on-device AI.”",[],{"_20":1288,"_90":266,"_267":1289,"_275":1312,"_277":278},"ea0d0888f24d",[1290,1294,1299,1303,1308],{"_20":1291,"_90":271,"_272":1292,"_141":1293},"c484d592a241",[],"Aside from privacy, the founder notes that going lightweight was an important architectural consideration to run successfully on edge. “Because of the memory pressure issues with the ",{"_20":1295,"_90":271,"_272":1296,"_141":1298},"e39d37c1ea2c",[1297],"a281272b15f2","Jetson Linux",{"_20":1300,"_90":271,"_272":1301,"_141":1302},"7c27af004f44",[],", we made a key decision early on to build the core of the SDK in ",{"_20":1304,"_90":271,"_272":1305,"_141":1307},"a74babccffb6",[1306],"a0ea04ccc546","Zig",{"_20":1309,"_90":271,"_272":1310,"_141":1311},"49524083c6a5",[],". This gave us a lot of control over memory pressure and it gave us full control over how we actually want to architect memory use for the SDK, because on-device AI uses a lot of resources on mobile.”",[1313,1315],{"_20":1297,"_90":30,"_396":1314},"https://developer.nvidia.com/embedded/jetson-linux-r3643",{"_20":1306,"_90":30,"_396":1316},"https://ziglang.org/",{"_20":1318,"_90":266,"_267":1319,"_275":1324,"_277":278},"e379b830e1eb",[1320],{"_20":1321,"_90":271,"_272":1322,"_141":1323},"090dfbc5e2fc",[],"“So we needed to build an SDK that's extremely lightweight. Because we’re running an observability SDK on constrained hardware, it would need to stay lightweight enough to not create another source of memory pressure competing against the model it’s observing. We think that for edge AI, debugging is something that is going to become a big problem. And it's totally different from how current tools actually enable teams to receive telemetry.”",[],{"_20":1326,"_90":266,"_267":1327,"_275":1332,"_277":278},"d120d7d1c55e",[1328],{"_20":1329,"_90":271,"_272":1330,"_141":1331},"017f00a9c3a6",[],"The founder admits that part of his inspiration came from his own analysis of the AI space, which increasingly seems dominated by billion-dollar vendors pushing trillion-parameter models. “We believe wholeheartedly that edge AI is 100% the future. Smaller models are improving at a rapid rate. Vendors like Apple and Google keep pumping a lot of money in the space, and we think that the kind of benefits that edge AI provides are undeniable.”",[],{"_20":1334,"_90":266,"_267":1335,"_275":1340,"_277":278},"88259a07d188",[1336],{"_20":1337,"_90":271,"_272":1338,"_141":1339},"007257714f01",[],"“First, there’s privacy. Second, there’s improvements to latency, and third, is cost reduction. As the models keep improving, people are going to start realizing and taking this extremely seriously as we move forward. The space is still very early. But the world I see in the future is one in which we'll have on-device AI everywhere you go. There’s already on-device AI in cars, and we'll have robots that need on-device AI, for television, mobile, and so on.”",[],{"_20":1342,"_90":266,"_267":1343,"_275":1348,"_277":278},"fa06d141f9b1",[1344],{"_20":1345,"_90":271,"_272":1346,"_141":1347},"8c15a64289b3",[],"“Yes, the Cloud will always be where true intelligence, the larger computational intelligence, lives. But more and more companies are going to keep moving towards leveraging the on-device AI space as we move forward. And I think that's why Apple has also been putting a lot of effort year over year into the Apple Neural Engine and every chip that they release, prioritizing the inference power that they can actually pull out of the on device models.”",[],{"_20":1350,"_90":266,"_267":1351,"_275":1356,"_277":368},"bb08c1e33c67",[1352],{"_20":1353,"_90":271,"_272":1354,"_141":1355},"8225a1eccfb5",[],"Founder Lessons, Enterprise Adoption, and the Future of Compute",[],{"_20":1358,"_90":266,"_267":1359,"_275":1364,"_277":278},"0f1dca34a263",[1360],{"_20":1361,"_90":271,"_272":1362,"_141":1363},"5446dd4a7a6b",[],"For founders looking to build on-device AI products, Karani suggests that his own deep understanding of the space has been fundamental to his progress. “I think having a good understanding of how the hardware state actually works is important. The computation and the OS system attributes during inference time...that’s a different problem space that a lot of engineers need to understand if they're going into the on-device space.”",[],{"_20":1366,"_90":266,"_267":1367,"_275":1372,"_277":278},"2f49784b8a7f",[1368],{"_20":1369,"_90":271,"_272":1370,"_141":1371},"bd75e9744e7c",[],"“Inference is one thing, input and output of prompts is another. But for a lot of these models, you have to understand they're not in a problem space that is similar to running on a large data center in Atlanta with perfect resources all the time. These are models that are running on-device with varying, different pressures in constrained environments. Understanding those environments is key to actually building the right systems for AI solutions.”",[],{"_20":1374,"_90":266,"_267":1375,"_275":1380,"_277":278},"d217ab50b70d",[1376],{"_20":1377,"_90":271,"_272":1378,"_141":1379},"80ee14ec9ff8",[],"On the question of why device-specific telemetry still doesn’t seem to be mainstream at the enterprise level, the founder points back to how the tool ecosystem for edge computing is still in its early days. “There’s a lack of tooling. A lot of the enterprise companies we speak to are concerned over their lack of telemetry and understanding of how models behave when they’re actually out into production.”",[],{"_20":1382,"_90":266,"_267":1383,"_275":1388,"_277":278},"66d1e4b93387",[1384],{"_20":1385,"_90":271,"_272":1386,"_141":1387},"f3f842438cd8",[],"“For instance, we were speaking to a medical company that was trying to launch a very privacy-centric, on-device model to different customers. But what they found is that they just couldn’t risk getting an incorrect diagnosis from the model (and not being able to understand why it happened). Existing tools just didn't cater to them. The space is so early and emerging and a lot of the focus is on cloud models.”",[],{"_20":1390,"_90":266,"_267":1391,"_275":1396,"_277":278},"37063324755f",[1392],{"_20":1393,"_90":271,"_272":1394,"_141":1395},"345027e2fcbe",[],"The founder notes that while high-end cloud models get a lot of attention, they’re also currently leading to a lot of untenable costs. “I think that's what's going to push enterprises more into on-device AI. And as [on-device models] improve, the solutions will become simpler, but we need to provide them with the kind of tooling that enables them to ship on-device AI reliably to their users.”",[],{"_20":1398,"_90":266,"_267":1399,"_275":1404,"_277":278},"8e071c2e06f0",[1400],{"_20":1401,"_90":271,"_272":1402,"_141":1403},"6731a73112cc",[],"Will there be an inflection point at which everything flips from cloud to local? Maybe not. “I think people are going to have a balance of the two. Teams will leverage on-device models for certain tasks and route to cloud models when they need heavy computational work to be completed. I think the future will be a hybrid of the two. I don’t think on-device AI is going to completely negate the need for Cloud, but I think cost and performance are going to push people to try to understand how to leverage a hybrid of the two. And the majority of the work we do today will be pushed to the on-device models for inference.”",[],13,"https://cdn.sanity.io/images/50q6fr1p/production/b4042cb54ee8f7b7f4ab04864bd8e1cf7a157ff6-1200x630.png","f7ca2bf6-bf0c-4904-aa01-faede655849e","2026-08-25T16:22:00.000Z","why-on-device-inference-needs-custom-observability","Why On-Device Inference Needs Custom Observability",{"_300":1412,"_310":2135,"_127":2136,"_313":2137,"_317":2138,"_319":2139,"_32":2140,"_322":972},[1413,1421,1451,1459,1507,1511,1526,1534,1553,1572,1588,1596,1626,1634,1642,1650,1669,1688,1704,1712,1720,1729,1737,1745,1753,1772,1807,1815,1839,1858,1866,1874,1890,1898,1906,1921,1929,1937,1945,1964,1988,2014,2022,2049,2057,2065,2073,2081,2089,2108,2127],{"_20":1414,"_90":266,"_267":1415,"_275":1420,"_277":368},"7a24ac14d07e",[1416],{"_20":1417,"_90":271,"_272":1418,"_141":1419},"48d3443f20a8",[],"How Can Agents Be the Future if They’re not Reliable?",[],{"_20":1422,"_90":266,"_267":1423,"_275":1446,"_277":278},"ff2d4b14fb40",[1424,1428,1433,1437,1442],{"_20":1425,"_90":271,"_272":1426,"_141":1427},"4b0676b5544d",[],"Some reports suggest that as many as ",{"_20":1429,"_90":271,"_272":1430,"_141":1432},"7633cd943027",[1431],"72307ba313ce","25%",{"_20":1434,"_90":271,"_272":1435,"_141":1436},"103406d76f91",[]," of enterprises have adopted agentic workflows. Isn’t this the era of AI agents? Why isn’t the number higher? Aside from predictable enterprise-level concerns (",{"_20":1438,"_90":271,"_272":1439,"_141":1441},"01325be45d21",[1440],"c2f310fcffb7","49%",{"_20":1443,"_90":271,"_272":1444,"_141":1445},"c145585f2175",[]," of enterprises are reportedly holding off due to security concerns, for instance), agents haven’t proven to be reliable workhorses at scale, particularly for long-horizon tasks. Not yet, anyway.",[1447,1449],{"_20":1431,"_90":30,"_396":1448},"https://snyk.io/blog/agentic-development-lifecycle/",{"_20":1440,"_90":30,"_396":1450},"https://www.forrester.com/blogs/the-state-of-agentic-ai-in-2026-companies-are-chasing-few-are-catching/",{"_20":1452,"_90":266,"_267":1453,"_275":1458,"_277":278},"72359702785e",[1454],{"_20":1455,"_90":271,"_272":1456,"_141":1457},"c805aa2c35cb",[],"Agents still can’t “remember” their learnings from previous successful runs, still hallucinate when their context window becomes full, and still have a number of other issues. Wasn’t the perfect agentic future supposed to feature technical teams commanding fleets of infallible, well-trained agents to do their bidding?",[],{"_20":1460,"_90":266,"_267":1461,"_275":1500,"_277":278},"24ebf08aefeb",[1462,1466,1471,1475,1480,1483,1487,1491,1496],{"_20":1463,"_90":271,"_272":1464,"_141":1465},"0008706ad2a9",[],"Open-source creator ",{"_20":1467,"_90":271,"_272":1468,"_141":1470},"bfecdcdc2d8e",[1469],"f4b6e64c3af0","Mike Hostetler",{"_20":1472,"_90":271,"_272":1473,"_141":1474},"c55ab4189631",[]," believes such a future is possible if systems combine strong guardrails with fault-tolerant infrastructure designed for large-scale deployments. Here, he explains why he built his project, ",{"_20":1476,"_90":271,"_272":1477,"_141":1479},"1b8ae31d51e4",[1478],"b47c6c24e0ab","Jido",{"_20":1481,"_90":271,"_272":1482,"_141":855},"4ac8dc73cc44",[],{"_20":1484,"_90":271,"_272":1485,"_141":1486},"2f226b078804",[440],"not",{"_20":1488,"_90":271,"_272":1489,"_141":1490},"7c9c7486bda0",[]," using Python, the de facto programming language for AI, but using ",{"_20":1492,"_90":271,"_272":1493,"_141":1495},"be12332c52e1",[1494],"f60c98fe6c05","Elixir",{"_20":1497,"_90":271,"_272":1498,"_141":1499},"1edf6210f9e9",[],", which was inherently designed to support maintainability and massive concurrency.",[1501,1503,1505],{"_20":1469,"_90":30,"_396":1502},"https://www.linkedin.com/in/mikehostetler/",{"_20":1478,"_90":30,"_396":1504},"https://github.com/agentjido/jido",{"_20":1494,"_90":30,"_396":1506},"https://elixir-lang.org/",{"_20":1508,"_90":127,"_92":1509},"4bd56dd08d69",{"_94":1510,"_90":96},"image-734e0114ac063680123b3471dd5f4f588375e8fa-1280x591-jpg",{"_20":1512,"_90":266,"_267":1513,"_275":1523,"_277":278},"b03c891ae9f1",[1514,1518],{"_20":1515,"_90":271,"_272":1516,"_141":1517},"0c2b5b8ee499",[440],"Mike Hostetler discusses how AI is changing the business of building software on the Software Without Borders podcast. Image courtesy ",{"_20":1519,"_90":271,"_272":1520,"_141":1522},"a2615c1217b2",[1521,440],"ea2317db32a8","Software \nWithout Borders",[1524],{"_20":1521,"_90":30,"_396":1525},"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVYqx_FDTPU",{"_20":1527,"_90":266,"_267":1528,"_275":1533,"_277":368},"378419cb6538",[1529],{"_20":1530,"_90":271,"_272":1531,"_141":1532},"b95d6349db96",[],"Resolving Nondeterministic LLMs and Deterministic Algorithms",[],{"_20":1535,"_90":266,"_267":1536,"_275":1550,"_277":278},"87b25977462d",[1537,1541,1546],{"_20":1538,"_90":271,"_272":1539,"_141":1540},"2cb97e117942",[],"Hostetler, a veteran developer and founder, got his start working on the ",{"_20":1542,"_90":271,"_272":1543,"_141":1545},"5df850edc9eb",[1544],"e7748844a8dd","jQuery",{"_20":1547,"_90":271,"_272":1548,"_141":1549},"e6f957aa936c",[]," ecosystem, from which he built a career, a startup, and a lifelong curiosity about technology. He explains that his introduction to Elixir came from a tour of duty working in distributed systems, which inspired him to think through the challenge of being able to run multiple agents with real-world reliability. “I envisioned a future of ‘10,000 agents per human.’”",[1551],{"_20":1544,"_90":30,"_396":1552},"https://jquery.com",{"_20":1554,"_90":266,"_267":1555,"_275":1569,"_277":278},"0609f26003a6",[1556,1560,1565],{"_20":1557,"_90":271,"_272":1558,"_141":1559},"11d3ae480877",[],"The creator notes that his original vision was running 10,000 agents on a single ",{"_20":1561,"_90":271,"_272":1562,"_141":1564},"bd8a2854d8b0",[1563],"f82f2e7f077d","Raspberry Pi",{"_20":1566,"_90":271,"_272":1567,"_141":1568},"3efb34af94bf",[],". In other words, in a resource-constrained environment with no direct access to LLMs. Models were getting better, but capital expenditure from foundation labs continued to skyrocket.",[1570],{"_20":1563,"_90":30,"_396":1571},"https://www.raspberrypi.com/",{"_20":1573,"_90":266,"_267":1574,"_275":1587,"_277":278},"c7d5705ac245",[1575,1579,1583],{"_20":1576,"_90":271,"_272":1577,"_141":1578},"22d5ed497f6c",[],"Hostetler suggests his goal was to make the best of both worlds: Capitalize on the improving performance of state-of-the-art models, combined with performant infrastructure that wouldn’t break the bank. “The intersection of these two ideas is: Agents needed to be easy to build, easy to deploy, easy to orchestrate and coordinate. And then, 20% of your agents could use an LLM as the thinking step. But it needed to be just as easy to build 80% of your agents on what I call ",{"_20":1580,"_90":271,"_272":1581,"_141":1582},"ae3aaa793b3f",[440],"classical AI algorithms",{"_20":1584,"_90":271,"_272":1585,"_141":1586},"c8c502a31d12",[],".”",[],{"_20":1589,"_90":266,"_267":1590,"_275":1595,"_277":278},"5e457368ab04",[1591],{"_20":1592,"_90":271,"_272":1593,"_141":1594},"ed9ee37193c9",[],"The builder clarifies that ‘classic algorithms’ also include logic that predates LLMs: “Everything from a finite state machine to a behavior tree to hierarchical task networks. Video game AI as well as LLM AI. And those could work in concert and then be easily and inexpensively deployable for a user, which gets into the real pragmatic piece.”",[],{"_20":1597,"_90":266,"_267":1598,"_275":1621,"_277":278},"c843c70bed8d",[1599,1603,1608,1612,1617],{"_20":1600,"_90":271,"_272":1601,"_141":1602},"9425a3cff2d7",[],"Hostetler clarifies that despite Jido’s explicit “AI optional” clause, his approach to AI is less skeptical and more pragmatic. “I love the nondeterminism of LLMs. I love pushing those boundaries. Just by happenstance, having put my own open-source project out there, I got to know ",{"_20":1604,"_90":271,"_272":1605,"_141":1607},"9a152e0af025",[1606],"c4b6a4a077f8","Geoff Huntley",{"_20":1609,"_90":271,"_272":1610,"_141":1611},"f8941b7433c0",[]," and tried ",{"_20":1613,"_90":271,"_272":1614,"_141":1616},"b9826d2e81c5",[1615],"cfe50a2150c7","the Ralph Wiggum loop",{"_20":1618,"_90":271,"_272":1619,"_141":1620},"64bca5e784fe",[]," before it was publicly available. Loved it, and had Jido running loops.”",[1622,1624],{"_20":1606,"_90":30,"_396":1623},"https://ghuntley.com",{"_20":1615,"_90":30,"_396":1625},"https://ghuntley.com/loop/",{"_20":1627,"_90":266,"_267":1628,"_275":1633,"_277":278},"103cd73a04dd",[1629],{"_20":1630,"_90":271,"_272":1631,"_141":1632},"9d7796132c04",[],"“But I quickly observed that [with successive loops], you end up compounding quality issues and you run into these challenges.” The builder’s observations led him to start experimenting with combinations of agentic loops and classical, deterministic AI algorithms, based on a self-taught course of study.",[],{"_20":1635,"_90":266,"_267":1636,"_275":1641,"_277":278},"0291b7718207",[1637],{"_20":1638,"_90":271,"_272":1639,"_141":1640},"094ef0d4310f",[],"“I've used my computer science degree more in the last two years than I have in my entire career, which is just so much fun. So I’m not ‘anti-AI’ at all. What I want to put forward is something that lets you use both modes of tooling in the same context, instead of having a ‘developer mentality’ that requires a hard switch between ‘Here’s an agent that has an LLM as its brain’ versus an agent that has a finite state machine as its brain, and you have to build a bridge between the two. Jido makes both into first-class citizens. I knew as an engineer, as an architect, I would want both.”",[],{"_20":1643,"_90":266,"_267":1644,"_275":1649,"_277":368},"8b84eea66041",[1645],{"_20":1646,"_90":271,"_272":1647,"_141":1648},"66b38a3b5c20",[],"How Can Agents Master Long-Horizon Jobs?",[],{"_20":1651,"_90":266,"_267":1652,"_275":1666,"_277":278},"47dc737f6c1e",[1653,1657,1662],{"_20":1654,"_90":271,"_272":1655,"_141":1656},"867bc7833538",[],"Hostetler admits to reading, and speculating about, the news headlines about agents seemingly getting closer to the holy grail of succeeding on complicated, long-horizon tasks in a single, zero-shot run. “Yes, I read the headlines, and I see the ",{"_20":1658,"_90":271,"_272":1659,"_141":1661},"06d1b38bf227",[1660],"2ea1dd0e9cf9","METR reports",{"_20":1663,"_90":271,"_272":1664,"_141":1665},"8b4acaa0ac87",[],". I would say I have hypotheses about the topic, but I acknowledge the limits of my hypotheses.”",[1667],{"_20":1660,"_90":30,"_396":1668},"https://metr.org/time-horizons/",{"_20":1670,"_90":266,"_267":1671,"_275":1685,"_277":278},"8d0acac52e79",[1672,1676,1681],{"_20":1673,"_90":271,"_272":1674,"_141":1675},"2c71dc2a8678",[],"“We see new model drops like the [recalled-and-re-released] ",{"_20":1677,"_90":271,"_272":1678,"_141":1680},"45c1bbef0be9",[1679],"f0386e204d9f","Fable 5",{"_20":1682,"_90":271,"_272":1683,"_141":1684},"1fbdf1ad0724",[],", which can reportedly do a long-running task for eight hours, uninterrupted.” The creator notes that it can be hard to separate reality from hype, but notes that foundation labs may have different incentives than the rest of us.",[1686],{"_20":1679,"_90":30,"_396":1687},"https://www.anthropic.com/news/fable-mythos-access",{"_20":1689,"_90":266,"_267":1690,"_275":1703,"_277":278},"a2cf64eff7a9",[1691,1695,1699],{"_20":1692,"_90":271,"_272":1693,"_141":1694},"eaf492689fdb",[],"“I would think there is a lot of pressure to embed the capability ",{"_20":1696,"_90":271,"_272":1697,"_141":1698},"92183232c806",[440],"behind the walls",{"_20":1700,"_90":271,"_272":1701,"_141":1702},"8058aab96629",[]," of the model; to make Fable better via academic RL, or to have a lot of infrastructure running between the API call and the model itself. You see them pulling in things like their web API tools, and doing everything to make Anthropic a walled garden for any corporate customer.”",[],{"_20":1705,"_90":266,"_267":1706,"_275":1711,"_277":278},"41e706c870c8",[1707],{"_20":1708,"_90":271,"_272":1709,"_141":1710},"14797e507230",[],"Hostetler contrasts the lofty ambitions of foundation labs against his day-to-day work, which requires him to service ERP systems maintained by tech leaders across the country who need reliable performance, day in and day out.",[],{"_20":1713,"_90":266,"_267":1714,"_275":1719,"_277":278},"c04dd4c136d2",[1715],{"_20":1716,"_90":271,"_272":1717,"_141":1718},"840ee6f95b58",[],"The creator suggests starting from a strong harness, but also looking into reliability. “A really concrete step is to start with a very high-quality model harness if I'm going to build my own agent. Yes, admittedly, Elixir’s philosophy is ‘let it crash,’ but you don't really want that to happen in practice. Your focus should be: How do you recover from the crash? How do you deliver high-quality software from that?”",[],{"_20":1721,"_90":266,"_267":1722,"_275":1727,"_277":1728},"5824b8efe53d",[1723],{"_20":1724,"_90":271,"_272":1725,"_141":1726},"16d38849b2d4",[],"“Elixir’s philosophy is ‘let it crash,’ but you don't really want that to happen in practice. Your focus should be: How do you recover from the crash? How do you deliver high-quality software from that?” -Mike Hostetler, Creator/Jido",[],"blockquote",{"_20":1730,"_90":266,"_267":1731,"_275":1736,"_277":368},"5959d9db324a",[1732],{"_20":1733,"_90":271,"_272":1734,"_141":1735},"9adc46734820",[],"Squaring the Circle: Autonomous Agents vs. Reliable Uptime",[],{"_20":1738,"_90":266,"_267":1739,"_275":1744,"_277":278},"b4fc4a69d6f3",[1740],{"_20":1741,"_90":271,"_272":1742,"_141":1743},"e958458240eb",[],"The builder recognizes the gap between LLM-powered agents that often fall down for a variety of reasons and Elixir-based systems like Discord and Pinterest that are expected to provide continuous uptime for millions of users. “Without getting too technical, this really was a key design decision of Jido itself.”",[],{"_20":1746,"_90":266,"_267":1747,"_275":1752,"_277":278},"40ebc9c9d5ad",[1748],{"_20":1749,"_90":271,"_272":1750,"_141":1751},"9b48defee678",[],"Hostetler explains that the project was designed to accommodate both builders of independent, solo agents as well as those building for coordinated, multi-agent use cases. “And also, there’s all the infrastructure concerns for when you go to deploy: Where does it live? How is it persisted? It's persisted with what I consider to be two schools of thought.”",[],{"_20":1754,"_90":266,"_267":1755,"_275":1769,"_277":278},"01a202626a6c",[1756,1760,1765],{"_20":1757,"_90":271,"_272":1758,"_141":1759},"6a69eed46b2a",[],"“The first [persistence story] is that I persist my ",{"_20":1761,"_90":271,"_272":1762,"_141":1764},"be252cd6a312",[1763],"e73f4b0caaf3","BEAM system",{"_20":1766,"_90":271,"_272":1767,"_141":1768},"888079506d54",[]," back to a durable store, like a Postgres database which is centralized. No issue there. And I would say that more than half our users use this. The other key story is what I call the fully distributed, fault-tolerant approach for scale that you get into with the really big deployments, such as WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger. Multi-region, multi-clustered...the big stuff.”",[1770],{"_20":1763,"_90":30,"_396":1771},"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BEAM_(Erlang_virtual_machine)",{"_20":1773,"_90":266,"_267":1774,"_275":1804,"_277":278},"52380ad616db",[1775,1779,1783,1787,1791,1795,1800],{"_20":1776,"_90":271,"_272":1777,"_141":1778},"04e742e52dfa",[],"“Jido was geared for [large-scale deployments]. We could get into the specifics of how Jido was created to live within the BEAM itself, but it ",{"_20":1780,"_90":271,"_272":1781,"_141":1782},"7f2912ffef49",[440],"is",{"_20":1784,"_90":271,"_272":1785,"_141":1786},"f38721e57e56",[]," possible. And there are nuances here, too. People come to the project and they sometimes feel like it's overbuilt. Case in point, when you send a message into a Jido agent, we use a dedicated message envelope called a ",{"_20":1788,"_90":271,"_272":1789,"_141":1790},"360df35b7e3c",[440],"Jido signal",{"_20":1792,"_90":271,"_272":1793,"_141":1794},"51665ddc50c6",[],", which, when you're in a single-node use case is really and truly overkill. And yet it's the standard built on the ",{"_20":1796,"_90":271,"_272":1797,"_141":1799},"152bbc74099b",[1798],"0abd3bbf8418","CloudEvents spec",{"_20":1801,"_90":271,"_272":1802,"_141":1803},"ca903e998961",[]," (which is independent of, and exists outside of Elixir).”",[1805],{"_20":1798,"_90":30,"_396":1806},"https://cloudevents.io/",{"_20":1808,"_90":266,"_267":1809,"_275":1814,"_277":278},"46faea6fef5d",[1810],{"_20":1811,"_90":271,"_272":1812,"_141":1813},"e670c10a6d1b",[],"“We do this because you can't have it both ways: You can't have your typical simple JSON payload alongside a robust, enterprise-grade, transport-agnostic CloudEvents envelope and do the same thing. You've got to pick a lane. And so, Jido picked the ‘robust and scalable’ lane. I do work with some teams that are now asking me about the multi-cluster use case. I’m working toward a demo of a multi-region cluster independent of a durable store with resilient agents.”",[],{"_20":1816,"_90":266,"_267":1817,"_275":1838,"_277":278},"8a6207353488",[1818,1822,1826,1830,1834],{"_20":1819,"_90":271,"_272":1820,"_141":1821},"775967e75006",[],"“To clarify, everything I just discussed was ",{"_20":1823,"_90":271,"_272":1824,"_141":1825},"5cfaaca93e88",[440],"outside",{"_20":1827,"_90":271,"_272":1828,"_141":1829},"97a4f29363fe",[]," the agentic loop. ",{"_20":1831,"_90":271,"_272":1832,"_141":1833},"accaff227757",[440],"Within",{"_20":1835,"_90":271,"_272":1836,"_141":1837},"83672844a0e3",[]," the agentic loop of determinism versus nondeterminism, there are guardrails within which Jido has to operate. It can't just go do everything because it was meant for the Raspberry Pi use case. Because Elixir and BEAM can natively cluster, you could easily have a deploy to support a use case for something like, let’s say, Internet of Things (IoT).”",[],{"_20":1840,"_90":266,"_267":1841,"_275":1855,"_277":278},"36dc5918428c",[1842,1846,1851],{"_20":1843,"_90":271,"_272":1844,"_141":1845},"f9f53a4cd67b",[],"“For example, you’re going to have a central cluster that then works with Jido agents that are deployed in an IoT setting that talk back to the central cluster, and you'd have two agents communicating with one another. You could have that modality in a larger deployment. As an example, one of the big successes in the Elixir world is the robot control project ",{"_20":1847,"_90":271,"_272":1848,"_141":1850},"30ba83fa35f4",[1849],"74bfc2d507f3","Beam Bots",{"_20":1852,"_90":271,"_272":1853,"_141":1854},"ac05df5ad6aa",[],", which adopted Jido natively, so we’re seeing use cases for non-clustered low-level IoT all the way up to your typical Claude Code agent harness.”",[1856],{"_20":1849,"_90":30,"_396":1857},"https://github.com/beam-bots",{"_20":1859,"_90":266,"_267":1860,"_275":1865,"_277":368},"6471f5331431",[1861],{"_20":1862,"_90":271,"_272":1863,"_141":1864},"88eb6436d108",[],"How Startup Founders Should Think About Agentic Products",[],{"_20":1867,"_90":266,"_267":1868,"_275":1873,"_277":278},"b02dc08a377e",[1869],{"_20":1870,"_90":271,"_272":1871,"_141":1872},"71c2612c69e4",[],"When asked how he would advise startup founders thinking of launching agentic products, Hostetler offers a handful of suggestions. “For your first level of planning, I would say: Focus on the default. How you define what an ‘agent’ is could be colored by your Claude Code glasses! Make sure that as you're defining an agent in terms of what you bring into your infrastructure, and that you have a tighter, concrete definition of what that is.”",[],{"_20":1875,"_90":266,"_267":1876,"_275":1889,"_277":278},"322cd96a4729",[1877,1881,1885],{"_20":1878,"_90":271,"_272":1879,"_141":1880},"a7c7ebbd0554",[],"“Second, the other mistake that I've seen (and have made personally) is that everybody wants to let the LLM ‘take the wheel.’ At the point when you're designing infrastructure to build a company on, you have to draw clear boundaries between nondeterminism and determinism, and create gates to bring it back and forth. And this is ",{"_20":1882,"_90":271,"_272":1883,"_141":1884},"1ea4bce42d9f",[440],"outside of",{"_20":1886,"_90":271,"_272":1887,"_141":1888},"9510224427a1",[]," the agentic loop.”",[],{"_20":1891,"_90":266,"_267":1892,"_275":1897,"_277":278},"e80672b9d929",[1893],{"_20":1894,"_90":271,"_272":1895,"_141":1896},"61e9e3aed2a8",[],"The creator suggests that customer expectations for agentic projects have grown over time. “After a few years, we’ve seen the patterns that ‘work,’ whether it's natural language or dynamic UI, we know the patterns to create user value and what users expect. The innovation has shifted from, ‘We can do just about anything,’ to ‘The user expectations are pretty much there, so how do you deliver on that?’”",[],{"_20":1899,"_90":266,"_267":1900,"_275":1905,"_277":278},"32013237d35f",[1901],{"_20":1902,"_90":271,"_272":1903,"_141":1904},"95b20553d1ab",[],"Hostetler describes an interesting project a friend built in Elixir that effectively replicated Claude Code’s functionality, but for posting on LinkedIn, using a dedicated agent with a specific ID. “Persistence wasn't dynamically allocated, but the agent would persist, and then it would hibernate and rehydrate when you wanted to edit a piece of content.”",[],{"_20":1907,"_90":266,"_267":1908,"_275":1920,"_277":278},"3309765c1194",[1909,1913,1917],{"_20":1910,"_90":271,"_272":1911,"_141":1912},"6b38e3208d9b",[],"The project let users edit posts normally via the LinkedIn GUI, but also supported giving instructions to a coordinator agent. “The key is, he made that persistent throughout the entire experience. So, no matter which modality you were interacting with, there was a kind of predefined team structure for how the agents would interact with your content. And it just struck me as this really innovative mental leap, that any agentic products I see ",{"_20":1914,"_90":271,"_272":1915,"_141":1916},"302d71f6b276",[440],"aren't thinking big enough",{"_20":1918,"_90":271,"_272":1919,"_141":1586},"5e2c8479951c",[],[],{"_20":1922,"_90":266,"_267":1923,"_275":1928,"_277":278},"f9024ac9c07d",[1924],{"_20":1925,"_90":271,"_272":1926,"_141":1927},"090d9b48e200",[],"The creator suggests that the main challenge he’d offer to startup founders and product owners is to think bigger. “I don't see a lot of product owners thinking about [larger ideas] because they're really stuck in the mindset of, ‘Claude Code is my agent. It can do everything. I have to always use Claude Code.’ I say: ‘No, you really need to break out of that mental model.’”",[],{"_20":1930,"_90":266,"_267":1931,"_275":1936,"_277":1728},"d279075f7c24",[1932],{"_20":1933,"_90":271,"_272":1934,"_141":1935},"1407b21e0ca6",[],"“It just struck me...that any agentic products I see aren't thinking big enough. I don't see a lot of product owners thinking about [larger ideas] because they're really stuck in the mindset of, ‘Claude Code is my agent. I say: ‘No, you really need to break out of that mental model.’”",[],{"_20":1938,"_90":266,"_267":1939,"_275":1944,"_277":368},"8bd22d228d02",[1940],{"_20":1941,"_90":271,"_272":1942,"_141":1943},"febccbe3dad6",[],"How to Think About Enterprise Adoption",[],{"_20":1946,"_90":266,"_267":1947,"_275":1961,"_277":278},"55d44d50b054",[1948,1952,1957],{"_20":1949,"_90":271,"_272":1950,"_141":1951},"140634326dd3",[],"When asked how he would advise ambitious startup founders looking to sell AI products to enterprises, Hostetler draws upon his own day-to-day experience. “I would say that we're early. I would acknowledge the timeline displacement, ",{"_20":1953,"_90":271,"_272":1954,"_141":1956},"60c8c804bc83",[1955],"395e4914b63e","Ray Kurzweil’s",{"_20":1958,"_90":271,"_272":1959,"_141":1960},"940cd7aa0849",[]," riff on the William Gibson quote about the future being here, just not evenly distributed.”",[1962],{"_20":1955,"_90":30,"_396":1963},"https://www.writingsbyraykurzweil.com/the-law-of-accelerating-returns",{"_20":1965,"_90":266,"_267":1966,"_275":1987,"_277":278},"69e3ce55443f",[1967,1971,1975,1979,1983],{"_20":1968,"_90":271,"_272":1969,"_141":1970},"c2cbce688847",[],"“What's happening in enterprises is that there are engineering teams who ",{"_20":1972,"_90":271,"_272":1973,"_141":1974},"8f43979ee05a",[440],"are ",{"_20":1976,"_90":271,"_272":1977,"_141":1978},"7386ba0066ca",[],"using the latest tools, and they're on that curve somewhere. But ",{"_20":1980,"_90":271,"_272":1981,"_141":1982},"80dac42e9497",[440],"the operations teams",{"_20":1984,"_90":271,"_272":1985,"_141":1986},"f3f8661263be",[]," are just starting.” The creator notes that he works with operations teams that are just starting to encounter the same challenges that engineering teams faced 18 months ago: Worrying whether AI will replace them, realizing AI likely won’t replace them, then trying to figure out how to fit into this brave new world.",[],{"_20":1989,"_90":266,"_267":1990,"_275":2011,"_277":278},"d6bdea3ba045",[1991,1995,2000,2004,2008],{"_20":1992,"_90":271,"_272":1993,"_141":1994},"6dbb3fee6f18",[],"“We're early in that phase [where people are trying to find] pragmatic use cases. The issue isn't so much the tools themselves. What's interesting to me is the layer above them, which I wrote about in ",{"_20":1996,"_90":271,"_272":1997,"_141":1999},"e44831398a0a",[1998],"ba5da2cbf968","my blog on orchestration",{"_20":2001,"_90":271,"_272":2002,"_141":2003},"3c012b7e05ac",[],". To me, orchestration is the cornerstone, because there's nothing actually orchestrating ",{"_20":2005,"_90":271,"_272":2006,"_141":2007},"c493d94c2769",[440],"the tools",{"_20":2009,"_90":271,"_272":2010,"_141":1586},"0ddedf4c18ed",[],[2012],{"_20":1998,"_90":30,"_396":2013},"https://mike-hostetler.com/blog/orchestrating-intelligence-why-every-company-will-have-a-chief-agent-officer-y4EQpjr9",{"_20":2015,"_90":266,"_267":2016,"_275":2021,"_277":278},"ffdaf5b669b5",[2017],{"_20":2018,"_90":271,"_272":2019,"_141":2020},"d9fbf1dd4f20",[],"“I think that corporations are set up in silos. Sales isn't talking to marketing, who isn't talking to ops. Ops isn't talking to product. So, the pragmatic things that we need are places to deploy AI experiments, because the thing we've emphasized internally isn't so much AI as an end state, but rather, AI as iteration.”",[],{"_20":2023,"_90":266,"_267":2024,"_275":2046,"_277":278},"86f97ec55b10",[2025,2029,2034,2038,2042],{"_20":2026,"_90":271,"_272":2027,"_141":2028},"9aad627e9643",[],"The creator recounts a story of a team he works with using Claude Code to build a dashboard. In a completely unintended consequence, Claude Code used the Google Workspace connect to deploy the dashboard to Google Sheets via ",{"_20":2030,"_90":271,"_272":2031,"_141":2033},"865280795f71",[2032],"2ed51292aa7f","Apps Script",{"_20":2035,"_90":271,"_272":2036,"_141":2037},"4e0143f6f2a2",[]," to create a public URL via, of all things, a Google Sheets backdoor. “I burst out laughing. There's an entire product ",{"_20":2039,"_90":271,"_272":2040,"_141":2041},"25776a76f3df",[440],"right there,",{"_20":2043,"_90":271,"_272":2044,"_141":2045},"8a472903f3c6",[]," in that space between a non-technical user and a model’s instincts to propose unexpected solutions.”",[2047],{"_20":2032,"_90":30,"_396":2048},"https://developers.google.com/apps-script/overview",{"_20":2050,"_90":266,"_267":2051,"_275":2056,"_277":278},"1afc27d42096",[2052],{"_20":2053,"_90":271,"_272":2054,"_141":2055},"19bdb5bfad0f",[],"Hostetler also points out a strong business opportunity in governance. “During my tour of duty in corporate, I spent two years as a VP of enterprise technology. I managed all the IT and compliance stuff for a publicly-traded company.” The creator notes that “AI governance” could easily go beyond basic compliance frameworks like SOC 2.",[],{"_20":2058,"_90":266,"_267":2059,"_275":2064,"_277":278},"8fe6ad610c6c",[2060],{"_20":2061,"_90":271,"_272":2062,"_141":2063},"9e450b53590e",[],"“Every LLM call in your organization will eventually be proxied and logged. But nobody's doing this at the moment. Think about just capturing it as one problem. Analyzing and fingerprinting.” The creator predicts that sooner than we think, organizations may need to be “AI compliant” with whatever new version of the SOC2 standard that arises.",[],{"_20":2066,"_90":266,"_267":2067,"_275":2072,"_277":278},"ef3eab6b09a3",[2068],{"_20":2069,"_90":271,"_272":2070,"_141":2071},"856e44ea47e3",[],"“Another [enterprise use case] I’d look at is insurance. Cybersecurity insurance with AI, mark my words, in the next two years, that will be a ‘thing.’ And this won’t just be your CrowdStrike-style, on-device stuff. It's all the things that get exfiltrated from what you build. Nobody's talking about that. The strategy there is very immature. Admittedly, this isn’t a very sexy space, but I think there's a lot of money to be made there.”",[],{"_20":2074,"_90":266,"_267":2075,"_275":2080,"_277":368},"8c5c46a705f3",[2076],{"_20":2077,"_90":271,"_272":2078,"_141":2079},"e55bcf804130",[],"The Future of Elixir and Durable Systems",[],{"_20":2082,"_90":266,"_267":2083,"_275":2088,"_277":278},"44f07555baa8",[2084],{"_20":2085,"_90":271,"_272":2086,"_141":2087},"83aa3f705283",[],"The creator is realistic about how his project and the greater Elixir ecosystem figure into the future of software development. “A non-Elixir shop is going to have a hard time adopting Elixir. So I can see Jido becoming an agentic sidecar that eventually makes it easy for TypeScript devs to spin up an agent with Elixir-level durability.”",[],{"_20":2090,"_90":266,"_267":2091,"_275":2105,"_277":278},"dbad934515e7",[2092,2096,2101],{"_20":2093,"_90":271,"_272":2094,"_141":2095},"ddf9d15e994c",[],"“This might be for a market segment that could be ‘one step below’ the ",{"_20":2097,"_90":271,"_272":2098,"_141":2100},"7929d2ffed1a",[2099],"f82cbe3cdbf8","Temporals",{"_20":2102,"_90":271,"_272":2103,"_141":2104},"82c9fc0d6074",[]," of the world. To clarify, I’ve used Temporal before, and it’s fantastic, though expensive. But thinking pragmatically, there are a lot more TypeScript devs in the world. Python will be its own thing. TypeScript devs are going to need an SDK to easily call Jido agents, and then Jido agents will operate async, and it'll just be self-contained with a dashboard to spin it up.”",[2106],{"_20":2099,"_90":30,"_396":2107},"https://temporal.io/",{"_20":2109,"_90":266,"_267":2110,"_275":2124,"_277":278},"b3f069861ce0",[2111,2115,2120],{"_20":2112,"_90":271,"_272":2113,"_141":2114},"7dc862f60a3b",[],"The creator acknowledges that popularly-used languages and frameworks like TypeScript and ",{"_20":2116,"_90":271,"_272":2117,"_141":2119},"a5ab9089e32a",[2118],"cc95782eb602","Node.js",{"_20":2121,"_90":271,"_272":2122,"_141":2123},"05d94911aeac",[]," are excellent for what they are, and that they solve specific problems. “But you need to be able to spin things up inexpensively that companies built on TypeScript can solve either by running in Docker via their infrastructure, or run out of a cloud where they can spin up platforms of agents, with one agent per customer (or dozens of agents per customer).”",[2125],{"_20":2118,"_90":30,"_396":2126},"http://node.js",{"_20":2128,"_90":266,"_267":2129,"_275":2134,"_277":278},"1c459bacc235",[2130],{"_20":2131,"_90":271,"_272":2132,"_141":2133},"4773952f0d8b",[],"“And to be able to do that practically is just going to be overwhelmingly expensive, even with Cloud costs. And you need to be able to stitch it all together, potentially using non-deterministic agents with deterministic agents to deliver a strong product experience. It’s a very early picture, but that's where I see the market now.”",[],19,"https://cdn.sanity.io/images/50q6fr1p/production/a119969ab98a18b0937559865cbc6ee4dee53c2d-1200x630.png","39be2ceb-4600-40c4-80a9-dc0c7b9504dd","2026-08-04T16:24:00.000Z","how-to-make-agents-durable-for-concurrent-systems","How to Make Agents Durable for Concurrent Systems","modules","moreFromLibrary",[2144,2146,2148],{"_20":2145,"_94":314,"_90":96},"UQ508qiYzaXE",{"_20":2147,"_94":335,"_90":96},"gQyl0U6Q80Mv",{"_20":2149,"_94":352,"_90":96},"NNPDVX7p8jwN","outlines",[2152],{"_20":2153,"_90":266,"_267":2154,"_275":2159,"_277":278},"3338fe22197a",[2155],{"_20":2156,"_90":271,"_272":2157,"_141":2158},"43be495aa9f0",[],"

Product As Community Panel with Keen IO, Firebase, & Nylas\n
- Why Community Matters
- Designing for Builders
- Onboarding and Delight
- Things That Don't Scale
- Bootstrapping a Community
- Leading Versus Letting Go
- Open Source and Roadmaps
- Audience Q&A
\n

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Before Stripe, he was the first member of Twitter’s international developer relations team and Co-Founder and CTO of Jolicloud, a pioneer in cloud computing.",[],"Romain Huet",{"_239":2177,"_241":2178,"_243":2179,"_2180":2260,"_90":2175,"_246":2187,"_2188":2262,"_2196":2268,"_13":2205,"_2206":138,"_2207":2208,"_2209":2210,"_30":2211,"_2212":2270,"_2216":2217,"_282":2218,"_2219":138,"_2220":2272,"_2230":2275,"_319":2276,"_2236":2237,"_2238":2239,"_2240":2277},{"_2182":2261},{"_2184":2178,"_2185":2186},[2263],{"_20":2188,"_90":266,"_267":2264,"_275":2267,"_277":278},[2265],{"_20":2188,"_90":271,"_272":2266,"_141":2194},[],[],{"_90":91,"_2198":2199,"_92":2269,"_2202":2203,"_2204":2199},{"_94":2201,"_90":96},{"_90":91,"_2198":2199,"_92":2271,"_2202":2203,"_2204":2199},{"_94":2215,"_90":96},[2273,2274],{"_20":2223,"_90":2224,"_28":2225,"_30":2211,"_32":2225},{"_20":2227,"_90":2224,"_28":2228,"_30":2229,"_32":2228},{"_90":2230,"_13":2218,"_2232":161,"_2233":161,"_32":2218},{"_90":319,"_2167":2235},[],"position","socials",[2281,2285],{"_20":2282,"_90":84,"_30":2283,"_282":2284},"UgoxshmeIt","https://twitter.com/romainhuet","twitter",{"_20":2286,"_90":84,"_30":2287,"_282":2288},"dyDfgGP37f","linkedin.com/in/romainhuet","linkedin","teamMember",{"_20":2291,"_90":2174,"_2175":2292,"_2242":2299},"spk17J9FLV",{"_239":2293,"_241":2294,"_243":2295,"_90":2175,"_246":2293,"_282":2296,"_319":2297},"2026-09-18T20:56:23Z","org-firebase","G6zzfp6s5dlbun6AVvKGRy","Firebase",{"_90":319,"_2167":2298},"firebase",{"_239":2300,"_241":2301,"_243":2302,"_90":2242,"_246":2303,"_2206":161,"_282":2304,"_2175":-5,"_2278":2203,"_2279":2305,"_2289":161},"2022-09-16T02:58:10Z","oTug8j9bB2lUwM6o7J9FLV","TYN2nJHhdg1RiOg5ta1HWG","2022-09-16T23:00:49Z","James Tamplin",[],{"_20":2307,"_90":2174,"_2175":2308,"_2242":2314},"spk27J7mLN",{"_239":2309,"_241":2310,"_243":2311,"_90":2175,"_246":2309,"_2206":161,"_282":2312,"_2219":161,"_2230":2313},"2023-08-24T23:11:12Z","a688a41b-acfe-4d4e-993b-bad77d380522","xOsxlhcvw4vT7qhifo7KVN","Nylas",{"_90":2230,"_2232":161,"_2233":161},{"_239":2315,"_241":2316,"_243":2317,"_2180":2318,"_90":2242,"_246":2321,"_2206":161,"_282":2322,"_2175":2323,"_2325":2326,"_2278":2329,"_2279":2330,"_2289":161},"2022-09-16T02:54:00Z","oTug8j9bB2lUwM6o7J7mLN","8tVsQQ0QoSxo5o6hywe7pG",{"_2182":2319},{"_2184":2316,"_2185":2320},"aeN0todGvIjkWyTywFzxIC","2025-08-12T21:37:39Z","Christine Spang",{"_239":2309,"_241":2310,"_243":2311,"_90":2175,"_246":2309,"_2206":161,"_282":2312,"_2219":161,"_2230":2324},{"_90":2230,"_2232":161,"_2233":161},"photo",{"_90":91,"_92":2327},{"_94":2328,"_90":96},"image-984dd983d6b6905b6f6a4b58a872e38f00d9eb33-480x480-webp","Founder",[],{"_20":2332,"_90":2174,"_2175":2333,"_2242":2375},"spk3SUIohp",{"_239":2177,"_241":2334,"_243":2179,"_2180":2335,"_90":2175,"_246":2187,"_2188":2337,"_2196":2344,"_13":2348,"_2206":138,"_2209":2349,"_30":2350,"_2212":2351,"_2216":2354,"_282":2355,"_2219":138,"_2220":2356,"_2230":2362,"_319":2363,"_2236":2365,"_2238":2366,"_2240":2367},"recMizEDZ8q7DTWFX",{"_2182":2336},{"_2184":2334,"_2185":2186},[2338],{"_20":2188,"_90":266,"_267":2339,"_275":2343,"_277":278},[2340],{"_20":2188,"_90":271,"_272":2341,"_141":2342},[],"Keen is a customer-facing metrics platform that makes shipping custom end-user analytics easy and seamless. It's developed tools and infrastructure to help developers deliver in-product analytics to their customers, and its platform can handle all aspects of event data management, from collection to application. Keen enables users to stream, store, query, and present data, all in one place and get a competitive advantage over the competition.\n\n\n",[],{"_90":91,"_2198":2345,"_92":2346,"_2202":2203,"_2204":2345},"Logo of KeenIO",{"_94":2347,"_90":96},"image-453a57dfd48bcbc50ae95d14e63f6d2e13d7b404-2500x539-svg","all-in-one solution for event data management","2013-08-07","https://www.keen.io",{"_90":91,"_2198":2345,"_92":2352,"_2202":2203,"_2204":2345},{"_94":2353,"_90":96},"image-69601e34ae46a04b1a362dbd7b8a5331c0d88e1c-2500x539-svg",10,"KeenIO",[2357,2358],{"_20":2223,"_90":2224,"_28":2225,"_30":2350,"_32":2225},{"_20":2359,"_90":2224,"_28":2360,"_30":2361,"_32":2360},"ff5ea2950e73","Work at KeenIO","https://www.chargify.com/careers/",{"_90":2230,"_13":2355,"_2232":161,"_2233":161,"_32":2355},{"_90":319,"_2167":2364},"keenio","series B","acquired",[2368,2370,2373],{"_20":2369,"_94":2369,"_90":96},"recNaU8YaHIknh9zf",{"_20":2371,"_94":2372,"_90":96},"recZYw0mgZ5S8ARdf","sGpx8ZAtjp3y9Udp02E1dM",{"_20":2374,"_94":2374,"_90":96},"receYd6r4lw1Sxxd5",{"_239":2376,"_241":2377,"_243":2378,"_90":2242,"_246":2379,"_2248":2380,"_2206":138,"_282":2387,"_2175":2388,"_2325":2410,"_2278":2414,"_319":2415,"_2279":2417,"_2240":2421,"_2289":161},"2022-04-29T20:41:46Z","recvWw68JJ9SUIohp","Z9vA4vnrsjyW2uZdDJRfki","2025-08-19T13:26:33Z",[2381],{"_20":2248,"_90":266,"_267":2382,"_275":2386,"_277":278},[2383],{"_20":2248,"_90":271,"_272":2384,"_141":2385},[],"Kyle Wild is Co-Founder of Keen. Previously, Kyle held positions focused on product management, software engineering, game design, and distributed systems scalability. He's worked in and around startups his whole career, mostly as CTO or CEO of venture-backed companies.\n",[],"Kyle Wild",{"_239":2177,"_241":2334,"_243":2179,"_2180":2389,"_90":2175,"_246":2187,"_2188":2391,"_2196":2397,"_13":2348,"_2206":138,"_2209":2349,"_30":2350,"_2212":2399,"_2216":2354,"_282":2355,"_2219":138,"_2220":2401,"_2230":2404,"_319":2405,"_2236":2365,"_2238":2366,"_2240":2406},{"_2182":2390},{"_2184":2334,"_2185":2186},[2392],{"_20":2188,"_90":266,"_267":2393,"_275":2396,"_277":278},[2394],{"_20":2188,"_90":271,"_272":2395,"_141":2342},[],[],{"_90":91,"_2198":2345,"_92":2398,"_2202":2203,"_2204":2345},{"_94":2347,"_90":96},{"_90":91,"_2198":2345,"_92":2400,"_2202":2203,"_2204":2345},{"_94":2353,"_90":96},[2402,2403],{"_20":2223,"_90":2224,"_28":2225,"_30":2350,"_32":2225},{"_20":2359,"_90":2224,"_28":2360,"_30":2361,"_32":2360},{"_90":2230,"_13":2355,"_2232":161,"_2233":161,"_32":2355},{"_90":319,"_2167":2364},[2407,2408,2409],{"_20":2369,"_94":2369,"_90":96},{"_20":2371,"_94":2372,"_90":96},{"_20":2374,"_94":2374,"_90":96},{"_90":91,"_2198":2411,"_92":2412,"_2202":2203,"_2204":2411},"Photo of Kyle Wild",{"_94":2413,"_90":96},"image-5ede1726fd62f873eea1f728abfbe6858db226ae-200x200-jpg","Co-Founder",{"_90":319,"_2167":2416},"kyle-wild",[2418],{"_20":2284,"_90":84,"_30":2419,"_282":2420},"https://twitter.com/dorkitude","Twitter",[2422,2423],{"_20":2369,"_94":2369,"_90":96},{"_20":2374,"_94":2374,"_90":96},"startDate","2017-05-05T04:14:00.000Z",[2427,2435],{"_239":2177,"_241":2428,"_20":2428,"_243":2429,"_90":2430,"_246":2431,"_282":2432,"_319":2433},"rec6FbRYYXQeIs6z1","YlxgmKTLxstUdop23VOf6s","tag","2022-06-15T12:10:33Z","Developer Relations",{"_90":319,"_2167":2434},"developer-relations",{"_239":2436,"_241":2437,"_243":2438,"_90":2430,"_246":2439,"_13":2440,"_282":2441,"_319":2442},"2021-09-21T20:59:30Z","tag-54","TfMkf5gVJ7UWv1vMi5R04L","2022-09-09T00:12:03Z","Learn the strategies and tactics to take your developer product to market.","Product",{"_90":319,"_2167":2443},"product","Product As Community Panel with Keen IO, Firebase, & Nylas","transcript",[2447,2485,2516,2524,2549,2574,2605,2619,2664,2705,2740,2761,2792,2813,2854,2878,2913,2948,2979,3010,3045,3076,3110,3141,3149,3173,3204,3235,3259,3300,3321,3342,3353,3367,3411,3452,3493,3524,3555,3596,3607,3621,3655,3686,3717,3738,3746,3780,3811,3845,3879,3903,3934,3978,3999,4020,4051,4075,4106,4147,4168,4209,4243,4264,4285,4316,4324,4348,4379,4413,4434,4475,4506,4527,4548,4579,4603,4634,4668,4689,4710,4731,4765,4786,4807,4828,4862,4883,4914,4922,4956,4980,5001,5022,5053,5084,5098,5112,5126,5160,5191,5232,5253,5284,5318,5349,5373,5404,5425,5433,5457,5478,5502,5533,5554,5575,5606,5637,5678,5702,5733,5757,5778,5799,5830,5861,5892,5906,5940,5961,5982,5993,6027,6061,6092,6123,6154,6175,6209,6233,6264,6295,6339,6360,6394,6415,6436,6467,6498,6539,6560,6601,6609,6633,6654,6688,6719,6740,6781,6802,6823,6837,6861,6875,6899,6920,6931,6982,7003,7024,7065,7086,7117,7131,7155,7179,7200,7241,7265,7279,7303,7334,7368,7399,7423,7457,7478,7492,7516,7547,7568,7589,7610,7631,7652,7683,7714,7735,7743,7767,7781,7815,7849,7880,7901,7932,7953,7984,8005,8039,8063,8094,8115,8126,8160,8181,8192,8216,8257,8271,8292,8326,8337,8361,8382,8403,8434,8468,8499,8520,8551,8572,8593,8617,8638,8672,8696,8720,8744,8765],{"_20":2448,"_90":266,"_267":2449,"_275":2476,"_277":278},"9f8946f17949",[2450,2455,2459,2463,2468,2471],{"_20":2451,"_90":271,"_272":2452,"_141":2454},"856d5c6ba483",[2453,1150],"de0b727","Romain Huet:",{"_20":2456,"_90":271,"_272":2457,"_141":2458},"a4ed75ab848a",[2453]," When you're building developer products, it's often your community that really makes the key differentiator for your business.",{"_20":2460,"_90":271,"_272":2461,"_141":2462},"3cb551739ea3",[]," ",{"_20":2464,"_90":271,"_272":2465,"_141":2467},"e9750b31ea4c",[2466],"e7f3003","Developers are also a very unique audience because, as we know, they're genuinely excited about great platforms, great tools.",{"_20":2469,"_90":271,"_272":2470,"_141":2462},"7f97d21cbe9d",[],{"_20":2472,"_90":271,"_272":2473,"_141":2475},"46db3951c2d5",[2474],"f53dbcd","And they really like strong product designs as well.",[2477,2481,2483],{"_20":2453,"_90":2478,"_2479":2480},"timestamp","time","00:00:09.800",{"_20":2466,"_90":2478,"_2479":2482},"00:00:16.600",{"_20":2474,"_90":2478,"_2479":2484},"00:00:23.260",{"_20":2486,"_90":266,"_267":2487,"_275":2509,"_277":278},"ca0bb3224cd6",[2488,2493,2496,2501,2504],{"_20":2489,"_90":271,"_272":2490,"_141":2492},"4db053d4c9cf",[2491],"80ba63b","And so at Stripe, for example, since the early days, we've really doubled down on making it super easy to onboard with the API, and really taking care of all the details about developer experience along the way.",{"_20":2494,"_90":271,"_272":2495,"_141":2462},"5247d8863a80",[],{"_20":2497,"_90":271,"_272":2498,"_141":2500},"f3adb0d2b654",[2499],"1c0fe20","So I'm super excited to have super great panelists tonight that all built awesome developer products, but also super strong developer communities, with Firebase, Nylas and Keen.",{"_20":2502,"_90":271,"_272":2503,"_141":2462},"8f1484a4b79d",[],{"_20":2505,"_90":271,"_272":2506,"_141":2508},"8cbabdf0fe7e",[2507],"e3ffd95","Thank you all for being here tonight.",[2510,2512,2514],{"_20":2491,"_90":2478,"_2479":2511},"00:00:26.540",{"_20":2499,"_90":2478,"_2479":2513},"00:00:37.640",{"_20":2507,"_90":2478,"_2479":2515},"00:00:48.920",{"_20":2517,"_90":266,"_267":2518,"_275":2523,"_277":368},"195434b72952",[2519],{"_20":2520,"_90":271,"_272":2521,"_141":2522},"cb8697b039e2",[],"Why Community Matters",[],{"_20":2525,"_90":266,"_267":2526,"_275":2544,"_277":278},"1ec85ad8fba5",[2527,2532,2536,2539],{"_20":2528,"_90":271,"_272":2529,"_141":2531},"3f2dc887282c",[2530,1150],"47e8b2a","Romain:",{"_20":2533,"_90":271,"_272":2534,"_141":2535},"4134536f0199",[2530]," The first question I would have for all of you is, why is community really integral to your company and what you're doing?",{"_20":2537,"_90":271,"_272":2538,"_141":2462},"b4c0bea4c733",[],{"_20":2540,"_90":271,"_272":2541,"_141":2543},"7621266a0e7b",[2542],"38b7c76","And maybe you want to start, James?",[2545,2547],{"_20":2530,"_90":2478,"_2479":2546},"00:00:52.140",{"_20":2542,"_90":2478,"_2479":2548},"00:01:01.620",{"_20":2550,"_90":266,"_267":2551,"_275":2569,"_277":278},"b34c7259f3b4",[2552,2557,2561,2564],{"_20":2553,"_90":271,"_272":2554,"_141":2556},"246992d41e79",[2555,1150],"e229d8f","James Tamplin:",{"_20":2558,"_90":271,"_272":2559,"_141":2560},"2383a3bb115d",[2555]," Certainly.",{"_20":2562,"_90":271,"_272":2563,"_141":2462},"668c4e212f20",[],{"_20":2565,"_90":271,"_272":2566,"_141":2568},"5798dfc712db",[2567],"7fa496c","Yeah, I think community is fairly essential to almost every single developer product.",[2570,2572],{"_20":2555,"_90":2478,"_2479":2571},"00:01:03.460",{"_20":2567,"_90":2478,"_2479":2573},"00:01:04.100",{"_20":2575,"_90":266,"_267":2576,"_275":2598,"_277":278},"9267388098ca",[2577,2582,2585,2590,2593],{"_20":2578,"_90":271,"_272":2579,"_141":2581},"beff49091c87",[2580],"2a62a69","Developers are unlike regular consumers. A lot of the signal they take, whether or not to use a product, is how many stars it has on GitHub or how many questions it has on Stack Overflow.",{"_20":2583,"_90":271,"_272":2584,"_141":2462},"1d60dbdd6e84",[],{"_20":2586,"_90":271,"_272":2587,"_141":2589},"67b9b65b241a",[2588],"241a316","Or what signal they've got from, I hate to use the word mavens, but the influencers in the developer community.",{"_20":2591,"_90":271,"_272":2592,"_141":2462},"a2d84881d0e3",[],{"_20":2594,"_90":271,"_272":2595,"_141":2597},"ee5364fc84dd",[2596],"2dba72a","And so in order to drive key business metrics like adoption, you need to have a strong community.",[2599,2601,2603],{"_20":2580,"_90":2478,"_2479":2600},"00:01:09.920",{"_20":2588,"_90":2478,"_2479":2602},"00:01:21.160",{"_20":2596,"_90":2478,"_2479":2604},"00:01:29.439",{"_20":2606,"_90":266,"_267":2607,"_275":2616,"_277":278},"ba49e3a8dbe9",[2608,2612],{"_20":2609,"_90":271,"_272":2610,"_141":2531},"5a277d033d07",[2611,1150],"9781991",{"_20":2613,"_90":271,"_272":2614,"_141":2615},"b394c50822a3",[2611]," Awesome. What about you, Christine?",[2617],{"_20":2611,"_90":2478,"_2479":2618},"00:01:38.079",{"_20":2620,"_90":266,"_267":2621,"_275":2655,"_277":278},"2c04a29a215d",[2622,2627,2631,2634,2639,2642,2647,2650],{"_20":2623,"_90":271,"_272":2624,"_141":2626},"2a443129633d",[2625,1150],"831ccf8","Christine Spang:",{"_20":2628,"_90":271,"_272":2629,"_141":2630},"a4ce53857ed8",[2625]," Yeah, I mean it's kind of the same for us.",{"_20":2632,"_90":271,"_272":2633,"_141":2462},"19794ad618e0",[],{"_20":2635,"_90":271,"_272":2636,"_141":2638},"155d570ae7b7",[2637],"19547aa","We're also a developer platform that helps folks integrate with email. Without our community, we wouldn't actually have a product and we wouldn't have a business, because",{"_20":2640,"_90":271,"_272":2641,"_141":2462},"ae51c1f33dfd",[],{"_20":2643,"_90":271,"_272":2644,"_141":2646},"b06743f5d106",[2645],"4089ad5","if developers weren't using the platform, then they wouldn't eventually start companies and ship products",{"_20":2648,"_90":271,"_272":2649,"_141":2462},"751bfe61d27f",[],{"_20":2651,"_90":271,"_272":2652,"_141":2654},"33a20ae36f5c",[2653],"ccd153f","and then actually start paying us for the infrastructure.",[2656,2658,2660,2662],{"_20":2625,"_90":2478,"_2479":2657},"00:01:40.400",{"_20":2637,"_90":2478,"_2479":2659},"00:01:42.400",{"_20":2645,"_90":2478,"_2479":2661},"00:01:53.220",{"_20":2653,"_90":2478,"_2479":2663},"00:02:00.160",{"_20":2665,"_90":266,"_267":2666,"_275":2696,"_277":278},"9fc82e1f8af3",[2667,2672,2675,2680,2683,2688,2691],{"_20":2668,"_90":271,"_272":2669,"_141":2671},"db78d6ff92e8",[2670],"3e8242b","So the community is kind of where it starts, and we rely on the community to spread the word and tell people about things.",{"_20":2673,"_90":271,"_272":2674,"_141":2462},"5f4b24d5e9fc",[],{"_20":2676,"_90":271,"_272":2677,"_141":2679},"b98118f79f04",[2678],"17b3961","And also it's very interesting to see what actually people build with the platform, and to get feedback from them.",{"_20":2681,"_90":271,"_272":2682,"_141":2462},"fd62e3f8aba3",[],{"_20":2684,"_90":271,"_272":2685,"_141":2687},"657518fc18a0",[2686],"700144d","So we also rely on the community for figuring out what to build next",{"_20":2689,"_90":271,"_272":2690,"_141":2462},"0ba81f2d518d",[],{"_20":2692,"_90":271,"_272":2693,"_141":2695},"2a1f2738e232",[2694],"d30e81f","and for getting new ideas as to what people might find useful.",[2697,2699,2701,2703],{"_20":2670,"_90":2478,"_2479":2698},"00:02:02.880",{"_20":2678,"_90":2478,"_2479":2700},"00:02:11.680",{"_20":2686,"_90":2478,"_2479":2702},"00:02:18.740",{"_20":2694,"_90":2478,"_2479":2704},"00:02:22.860",{"_20":2706,"_90":266,"_267":2707,"_275":2733,"_277":278},"07ebfa7da4d9",[2708,2713,2717,2720,2725,2728],{"_20":2709,"_90":271,"_272":2710,"_141":2712},"5d3c1bd4ce71",[2711,1150],"7921fc6","Kyle Wild:",{"_20":2714,"_90":271,"_272":2715,"_141":2716},"0514be925f0e",[2711]," Those were good answers. I concur with everything my fellow panelists said.",{"_20":2718,"_90":271,"_272":2719,"_141":2462},"b8bf001cc3f0",[],{"_20":2721,"_90":271,"_272":2722,"_141":2724},"87fa70338751",[2723],"fb12853","The only thing I would add from our perspectives.",{"_20":2726,"_90":271,"_272":2727,"_141":2462},"df23ede5e49c",[],{"_20":2729,"_90":271,"_272":2730,"_141":2732},"0550a86d13ba",[2731],"8c0fd37","Well, there's two things.",[2734,2736,2738],{"_20":2711,"_90":2478,"_2479":2735},"00:02:28.140",{"_20":2723,"_90":2478,"_2479":2737},"00:02:33.180",{"_20":2731,"_90":2478,"_2479":2739},"00:02:35.420",{"_20":2741,"_90":266,"_267":2742,"_275":2756,"_277":278},"4b0f54a2072c",[2743,2748,2751],{"_20":2744,"_90":271,"_272":2745,"_141":2747},"a91579ec3af9",[2746],"5862742","One, we were pretty bad at marketing from the start, but we were pretty good at product.",{"_20":2749,"_90":271,"_272":2750,"_141":2462},"2ab64de100ae",[],{"_20":2752,"_90":271,"_272":2753,"_141":2755},"543af51e7f8f",[2754],"9d01466","So community became the way that we grew, because word of mouth was the thing that worked and still drives more than 80% of our growth.",[2757,2759],{"_20":2746,"_90":2478,"_2479":2758},"00:02:36.700",{"_20":2754,"_90":2478,"_2479":2760},"00:02:40.620",{"_20":2762,"_90":266,"_267":2763,"_275":2785,"_277":278},"ae914a49767b",[2764,2769,2772,2777,2780],{"_20":2765,"_90":271,"_272":2766,"_141":2768},"d61b6c9874fd",[2767],"d332452","So there's a very kind of business cynical language around that, right?",{"_20":2770,"_90":271,"_272":2771,"_141":2462},"111463987419",[],{"_20":2773,"_90":271,"_272":2774,"_141":2776},"7f779b529a52",[2775],"d725f6c","Drives more than eighty percent of our growth.",{"_20":2778,"_90":271,"_272":2779,"_141":2462},"4fb98351552f",[],{"_20":2781,"_90":271,"_272":2782,"_141":2784},"560822b3e2bd",[2783],"f367eec","Okay. How do I get more of that?",[2786,2788,2790],{"_20":2767,"_90":2478,"_2479":2787},"00:02:48.680",{"_20":2775,"_90":2478,"_2479":2789},"00:02:52.280",{"_20":2783,"_90":2478,"_2479":2791},"00:02:53.560",{"_20":2793,"_90":266,"_267":2794,"_275":2808,"_277":278},"45494eabab7d",[2795,2800,2803],{"_20":2796,"_90":271,"_272":2797,"_141":2799},"1284d245348a",[2798],"e91c8db","But the thing that's been really useful for us looking back after five years is that the developer community. So we have a very sort of use case agnostic product, like a lot of developer platforms are.",{"_20":2801,"_90":271,"_272":2802,"_141":2462},"fd874b57df5f",[],{"_20":2804,"_90":271,"_272":2805,"_141":2807},"15ddb58bc145",[2806],"3f50b3b","The developer community that was finding interesting use cases in 2013, that use case we can sell to the mid-market now, and we'll sell to the enterprise in maybe five more years.",[2809,2811],{"_20":2798,"_90":2478,"_2479":2810},"00:02:56.239",{"_20":2806,"_90":2478,"_2479":2812},"00:03:06.120",{"_20":2814,"_90":266,"_267":2815,"_275":2845,"_277":1728},"30f5c0eafd37",[2816,2821,2824,2829,2832,2837,2840],{"_20":2817,"_90":271,"_272":2818,"_141":2820},"d06752937a28",[2819],"1ae0aeb","So they're the kind of discovery engine.",{"_20":2822,"_90":271,"_272":2823,"_141":2462},"42fe36f59555",[],{"_20":2825,"_90":271,"_272":2826,"_141":2828},"f2f51103dba8",[2827],"d18c9d3","You give them a bunch of tools and see what they do.",{"_20":2830,"_90":271,"_272":2831,"_141":2462},"31b22091b1a4",[],{"_20":2833,"_90":271,"_272":2834,"_141":2836},"de312b995f5f",[2835],"c7adc4f","And if it's repeatable, then we can describe what they did.",{"_20":2838,"_90":271,"_272":2839,"_141":2462},"a85377228928",[],{"_20":2841,"_90":271,"_272":2842,"_141":2844},"8e34511fdc13",[2843],"87ef26f","And we didn't have to actually be clever, because the community is so big that they can go be clever for us.",[2846,2848,2850,2852],{"_20":2819,"_90":2478,"_2479":2847},"00:03:17.040",{"_20":2827,"_90":2478,"_2479":2849},"00:03:18.720",{"_20":2835,"_90":2478,"_2479":2851},"00:03:20.880",{"_20":2843,"_90":2478,"_2479":2853},"00:03:23.760",{"_20":2855,"_90":266,"_267":2856,"_275":2873,"_277":278},"af678e728859",[2857,2861,2865,2868],{"_20":2858,"_90":271,"_272":2859,"_141":2531},"d235ce9399c2",[2860,1150],"fd409c9",{"_20":2862,"_90":271,"_272":2863,"_141":2864},"621b7b3c638c",[2860]," And of course the three of you at different stages in terms of companies and so on, but maybe you can give us a sense of the size of your community, or maybe your growth targets, how you're approaching them.",{"_20":2866,"_90":271,"_272":2867,"_141":2462},"1af6a7c7ea88",[],{"_20":2869,"_90":271,"_272":2870,"_141":2872},"4bbd5e134964",[2871],"4e6d6d0","I think James, for instance, at Google Cloud Next you announced that one million apps now are using Firebase for their backend.",[2874,2876],{"_20":2860,"_90":2478,"_2479":2875},"00:03:29.540",{"_20":2871,"_90":2478,"_2479":2877},"00:03:39.300",{"_20":2879,"_90":266,"_267":2880,"_275":2906,"_277":278},"d91acfb0e8d4",[2881,2886,2890,2893,2898,2901],{"_20":2882,"_90":271,"_272":2883,"_141":2885},"c4e272fdd8bd",[2884,1150],"9742a1d","James:",{"_20":2887,"_90":271,"_272":2888,"_141":2889},"ecd529ed1617",[2884]," So I think size of community and size of active user base might be two different things.",{"_20":2891,"_90":271,"_272":2892,"_141":2462},"9d0ffdbbc28f",[],{"_20":2894,"_90":271,"_272":2895,"_141":2897},"22d8cdbd5e58",[2896],"dfc4e93","I would define community as somebody who sort of participates, whether social channels or in-person meetups or whatever it is.",{"_20":2899,"_90":271,"_272":2900,"_141":2462},"225dac8c399b",[],{"_20":2902,"_90":271,"_272":2903,"_141":2905},"1a9d49a3186f",[2904],"6a67a35","We have one million people who use our product, but our community number is probably less than that.",[2907,2909,2911],{"_20":2884,"_90":2478,"_2479":2908},"00:03:46.900",{"_20":2896,"_90":2478,"_2479":2910},"00:03:53.060",{"_20":2904,"_90":2478,"_2479":2912},"00:04:02.840",{"_20":2914,"_90":266,"_267":2915,"_275":2941,"_277":278},"ee13ac2cec37",[2916,2921,2925,2928,2933,2936],{"_20":2917,"_90":271,"_272":2918,"_141":2920},"12cd56eb86c5",[2919,1150],"cd41b7c","Christine:",{"_20":2922,"_90":271,"_272":2923,"_141":2924},"b8ad0bec0d43",[2919]," Yeah, our community kind of spans two different sets of people.",{"_20":2926,"_90":271,"_272":2927,"_141":2462},"2e6af6b9816e",[],{"_20":2929,"_90":271,"_272":2930,"_141":2932},"73b1cb6ca7c2",[2931],"8c31703","One is developers, and the second is kind of like email enthusiasts and power users who have downloaded our desktop mail application and are using it or playing around with it, or just",{"_20":2934,"_90":271,"_272":2935,"_141":2462},"70b967e0f374",[],{"_20":2937,"_90":271,"_272":2938,"_141":2940},"2b93c99f96db",[2939],"d411a6e","are kind of interested in the cutting edge of email apps and technology.",[2942,2944,2946],{"_20":2919,"_90":2478,"_2479":2943},"00:04:09.480",{"_20":2931,"_90":2478,"_2479":2945},"00:04:13.920",{"_20":2939,"_90":2478,"_2479":2947},"00:04:26.000",{"_20":2949,"_90":266,"_267":2950,"_275":2972,"_277":278},"97c03291dad2",[2951,2956,2959,2964,2967],{"_20":2952,"_90":271,"_272":2953,"_141":2955},"2a230cc34f5d",[2954],"bd9a9a1","As far as developers go, we have about, I think it's over 20,000 developers that have starred our most popular GitHub repo.",{"_20":2957,"_90":271,"_272":2958,"_141":2462},"5343cf1df760",[],{"_20":2960,"_90":271,"_272":2961,"_141":2963},"d9ef32def3a3",[2962],"1ddbb73","So that's one measure you can use.",{"_20":2965,"_90":271,"_272":2966,"_141":2462},"ec524c9d68f5",[],{"_20":2968,"_90":271,"_272":2969,"_141":2971},"f9d59fe508f2",[2970],"2e8aeb9","It's hard to get an exact measure of exactly how many people are in your community.",[2973,2975,2977],{"_20":2954,"_90":2478,"_2479":2974},"00:04:30.720",{"_20":2962,"_90":2478,"_2479":2976},"00:04:38.620",{"_20":2970,"_90":2478,"_2479":2978},"00:04:40.860",{"_20":2980,"_90":266,"_267":2981,"_275":3003,"_277":278},"1f01f3bff349",[2982,2987,2990,2995,2998],{"_20":2983,"_90":271,"_272":2984,"_141":2986},"f7d74d402b6c",[2985],"c1fa1e9","We also have a Slack channel which has about 3,000 people on it.",{"_20":2988,"_90":271,"_272":2989,"_141":2462},"5e2c3b736910",[],{"_20":2991,"_90":271,"_272":2992,"_141":2994},"9f8b8660345f",[2993],"2a3cc6a","So it's kind of a mix of developers and also just enthusiasts.",{"_20":2996,"_90":271,"_272":2997,"_141":2462},"3d31f70f4243",[],{"_20":2999,"_90":271,"_272":3000,"_141":3002},"d5d7f484c877",[3001],"106b645","And we have different channels for each kind of type of folks.",[3004,3006,3008],{"_20":2985,"_90":2478,"_2479":3005},"00:04:45.740",{"_20":2993,"_90":2478,"_2479":3007},"00:04:50.060",{"_20":3001,"_90":2478,"_2479":3009},"00:04:53.980",{"_20":3011,"_90":266,"_267":3012,"_275":3038,"_277":278},"1632b64fcd65",[3013,3018,3022,3025,3030,3033],{"_20":3014,"_90":271,"_272":3015,"_141":3017},"88950a2ed731",[3016,1150],"0263cdd","Kyle:",{"_20":3019,"_90":271,"_272":3020,"_141":3021},"5bf98d5c3e57",[3016]," So we're more that size than that size.",{"_20":3023,"_90":271,"_272":3024,"_141":2462},"589b2afa2d9f",[],{"_20":3026,"_90":271,"_272":3027,"_141":3029},"c1d96e4c9d61",[3028],"0ffe2e4","And our Slack channel, I think, is about twelve hundred people.",{"_20":3031,"_90":271,"_272":3032,"_141":2462},"b7e1aa5caa66",[],{"_20":3034,"_90":271,"_272":3035,"_141":3037},"4f4a47ae448d",[3036],"b1e4aa7","So we use those, and then we look at what are the kind of signals in the community that you can't quite measure.",[3039,3041,3043],{"_20":3016,"_90":2478,"_2479":3040},"00:04:59.000",{"_20":3028,"_90":2478,"_2479":3042},"00:05:08.379",{"_20":3036,"_90":2478,"_2479":3044},"00:05:12.220",{"_20":3046,"_90":266,"_267":3047,"_275":3069,"_277":278},"f58bb350f0a4",[3048,3053,3056,3061,3064],{"_20":3049,"_90":271,"_272":3050,"_141":3052},"cae968ea6915",[3051],"aac2c5d","Obviously we can certainly measure when they have accounts",{"_20":3054,"_90":271,"_272":3055,"_141":2462},"eef38053745d",[],{"_20":3057,"_90":271,"_272":3058,"_141":3060},"d7a2efbd9a54",[3059],"8067dcd","or when they engage on social media.",{"_20":3062,"_90":271,"_272":3063,"_141":2462},"933ab39109da",[],{"_20":3065,"_90":271,"_272":3066,"_141":3068},"0130da05e7d7",[3067],"6ac8e22","And we're at about, we just hit sixty thousand accounts at thirty five hundred companies. Those are the ones we know for sure are in our community.",[3070,3072,3074],{"_20":3051,"_90":2478,"_2479":3071},"00:05:17.180",{"_20":3059,"_90":2478,"_2479":3073},"00:05:19.840",{"_20":3067,"_90":2478,"_2479":3075},"00:05:22.480",{"_20":3077,"_90":266,"_267":3078,"_275":3103,"_277":278},"107f929cd059",[3079,3083,3087,3090,3095,3098],{"_20":3080,"_90":271,"_272":3081,"_141":2531},"2f9073ff689a",[3082,1150],"2a25d3a",{"_20":3084,"_90":271,"_272":3085,"_141":3086},"d44b09c95f75",[3082]," Awesome. So before we dive in the conversation, I'd be curious to know a bit more about the audience we have tonight.",{"_20":3088,"_90":271,"_272":3089,"_141":2462},"f2092fd4660e",[],{"_20":3091,"_90":271,"_272":3092,"_141":3094},"15712733a7e3",[3093],"323162a","Let's do a quick show of hands.",{"_20":3096,"_90":271,"_272":3097,"_141":2462},"3f340943ea74",[],{"_20":3099,"_90":271,"_272":3100,"_141":3102},"5fbfc11722bf",[3101],"24fde31","Who here is a company founder, entrepreneur?",[3104,3106,3108],{"_20":3082,"_90":2478,"_2479":3105},"00:05:32.300",{"_20":3093,"_90":2478,"_2479":3107},"00:05:38.100",{"_20":3101,"_90":2478,"_2479":3109},"00:05:39.460",{"_20":3111,"_90":266,"_267":3112,"_275":3134,"_277":278},"d988afc30da9",[3113,3118,3121,3126,3129],{"_20":3114,"_90":271,"_272":3115,"_141":3117},"3e2121c87c0e",[3116],"0c5361c","A few of you, awesome. And who is more on the technical side, developer or developer advocates maybe?",{"_20":3119,"_90":271,"_272":3120,"_141":2462},"7e435e83ad6b",[],{"_20":3122,"_90":271,"_272":3123,"_141":3125},"7a98fee38c09",[3124],"b5d40ab","Okay. And maybe some of you are on the marketing side, or like community managers.",{"_20":3127,"_90":271,"_272":3128,"_141":2462},"2944407b7214",[],{"_20":3130,"_90":271,"_272":3131,"_141":3133},"df165cd32ad5",[3132],"f411f0b","Great, so we have a very diverse audience, pretty much equal balance in the three things.",[3135,3137,3139],{"_20":3116,"_90":2478,"_2479":3136},"00:05:43.380",{"_20":3124,"_90":2478,"_2479":3138},"00:05:50.420",{"_20":3132,"_90":2478,"_2479":3140},"00:05:55.860",{"_20":3142,"_90":266,"_267":3143,"_275":3148,"_277":368},"92792848eae5",[3144],{"_20":3145,"_90":271,"_272":3146,"_141":3147},"557a0ae51513",[],"Designing for Builders",[],{"_20":3150,"_90":266,"_267":3151,"_275":3168,"_277":278},"0c5ef212386c",[3152,3156,3160,3163],{"_20":3153,"_90":271,"_272":3154,"_141":2531},"55038f956d29",[3155,1150],"6ed062b",{"_20":3157,"_90":271,"_272":3158,"_141":3159},"d3e3308be663",[3155]," Awesome. So let's dive in and talk about the product design and what it takes to basically build products for builders. And it's interesting, because building a platform is often about doing the heavy lifting",{"_20":3161,"_90":271,"_272":3162,"_141":2462},"f39b434fc7d6",[],{"_20":3164,"_90":271,"_272":3165,"_141":3167},"ec7ae0511985",[3166],"57d9851","so that developers can be creative and do things that were previously very difficult to achieve, or maybe even impossible at times.",[3169,3171],{"_20":3155,"_90":2478,"_2479":3170},"00:06:02.460",{"_20":3166,"_90":2478,"_2479":3172},"00:06:14.620",{"_20":3174,"_90":266,"_267":3175,"_275":3197,"_277":278},"423823fe5de9",[3176,3181,3184,3189,3192],{"_20":3177,"_90":271,"_272":3178,"_141":3180},"1045ce9b18a5",[3179],"f1b5d86","And that's really something I really enjoy about the three products that you guys are building, because like Christine, for instance, you abstract away the complexity of Microsoft Exchange and IMAP, SMTP.",{"_20":3182,"_90":271,"_272":3183,"_141":2462},"c1dfe9733b7a",[],{"_20":3185,"_90":271,"_272":3186,"_141":3188},"3326e71718e0",[3187],"390b727","For you, James, it's all about deploying real-time apps and really complex backends. And for you, it's like no longer need to be a big data expert.",{"_20":3190,"_90":271,"_272":3191,"_141":2462},"0f08d7fd58b8",[],{"_20":3193,"_90":271,"_272":3194,"_141":3196},"72c0af02bec3",[3195],"e549b5f","You can now leverage super easy APIs for analytics with Keen, right?",[3198,3200,3202],{"_20":3179,"_90":2478,"_2479":3199},"00:06:21.500",{"_20":3187,"_90":2478,"_2479":3201},"00:06:31.620",{"_20":3195,"_90":2478,"_2479":3203},"00:06:41.699",{"_20":3205,"_90":266,"_267":3206,"_275":3228,"_277":278},"4299acef11ec",[3207,3212,3215,3220,3223],{"_20":3208,"_90":271,"_272":3209,"_141":3211},"4bb4323816f7",[3210],"3b343f7","And so my question for you would be, how do you appeal to developers to build tools for builders like that?",{"_20":3213,"_90":271,"_272":3214,"_141":2462},"0a74509988ef",[],{"_20":3216,"_90":271,"_272":3217,"_141":3219},"404e24a4fccf",[3218],"f9d0af6","How do you cut the complexity so that all their work can be the creative work, basically?",{"_20":3221,"_90":271,"_272":3222,"_141":2462},"ba7670e431dd",[],{"_20":3224,"_90":271,"_272":3225,"_141":3227},"ba035d681016",[3226],"672f281","I don't know if one of you want to start.",[3229,3231,3233],{"_20":3210,"_90":2478,"_2479":3230},"00:06:46.220",{"_20":3218,"_90":2478,"_2479":3232},"00:06:53.260",{"_20":3226,"_90":2478,"_2479":3234},"00:07:00.260",{"_20":3236,"_90":266,"_267":3237,"_275":3254,"_277":278},"30449bc4e36e",[3238,3242,3246,3249],{"_20":3239,"_90":271,"_272":3240,"_141":2920},"64a4f1ad0a26",[3241,1150],"bc471fe",{"_20":3243,"_90":271,"_272":3244,"_141":3245},"ee4b0e43338d",[3241]," I think there's kind of a little bit of an art to actually finding the right balance of simplicity, and also not making it so that your users can't do things that they want to do.",{"_20":3247,"_90":271,"_272":3248,"_141":2462},"584972399ca4",[],{"_20":3250,"_90":271,"_272":3251,"_141":3253},"e0ea6b24e8e3",[3252],"c8889b1","For us, we kind of launched with the simplest possible thing that you could actually build a useful email app, and had to add in a few extra knobs later because of demand.",[3255,3257],{"_20":3241,"_90":2478,"_2479":3256},"00:07:04.320",{"_20":3252,"_90":2478,"_2479":3258},"00:07:16.560",{"_20":3260,"_90":266,"_267":3261,"_275":3291,"_277":278},"78798a8ba9f9",[3262,3267,3270,3275,3278,3283,3286],{"_20":3263,"_90":271,"_272":3264,"_141":3266},"245b800aa39b",[3265],"b3c864a","So for example, our original sending API was literally you send UTF-8, a body, subject, to, from",{"_20":3268,"_90":271,"_272":3269,"_141":2462},"1d332d5c0e6d",[],{"_20":3271,"_90":271,"_272":3272,"_141":3274},"53946c921c6e",[3273],"a1bb590","and any attachments, and then you hit send.",{"_20":3276,"_90":271,"_272":3277,"_141":2462},"b48b9699f5f0",[],{"_20":3279,"_90":271,"_272":3280,"_141":3282},"96247f38f807",[3281],"9223999","Later we had demand from some developers who wanted more control over the exact contents of that.",{"_20":3284,"_90":271,"_272":3285,"_141":2462},"ed51f4d1ba4c",[],{"_20":3287,"_90":271,"_272":3288,"_141":3290},"01156d953a48",[3289],"85a2300","So we added a separate API for sending raw emails, so you would send us the MIME object and we would send that.",[3292,3294,3296,3298],{"_20":3265,"_90":2478,"_2479":3293},"00:07:27.680",{"_20":3273,"_90":2478,"_2479":3295},"00:07:37.460",{"_20":3281,"_90":2478,"_2479":3297},"00:07:42.140",{"_20":3289,"_90":2478,"_2479":3299},"00:07:49.260",{"_20":3301,"_90":266,"_267":3302,"_275":3316,"_277":278},"1ccf3d0f313a",[3303,3308,3311],{"_20":3304,"_90":271,"_272":3305,"_141":3307},"7a373863281d",[3306],"ef88e16","I feel like you kinda have to go and experiment a little bit and find the right line.",{"_20":3309,"_90":271,"_272":3310,"_141":2462},"4627aaae6aec",[],{"_20":3312,"_90":271,"_272":3313,"_141":3315},"d6b672fa3195",[3314],"e207e1e","And it's almost better to err on the side of too simple first, because whenever you launch something, it's much harder to take it away than to give new things and new capabilities.",[3317,3319],{"_20":3306,"_90":2478,"_2479":3318},"00:07:57.580",{"_20":3314,"_90":2478,"_2479":3320},"00:08:03.820",{"_20":3322,"_90":266,"_267":3323,"_275":3337,"_277":1728},"7135a8f28970",[3324,3329,3332],{"_20":3325,"_90":271,"_272":3326,"_141":3328},"9adcba795205",[3327],"6edf689","And especially when you're running an API, you gotta keep in mind that anything you launch, and that someone in your community builds something on, you effectively have to support it forever.",{"_20":3330,"_90":271,"_272":3331,"_141":2462},"b9a925858b3b",[],{"_20":3333,"_90":271,"_272":3334,"_141":3336},"20f27499ac9d",[3335],"fa6f956","So again, it's easier to give new things than to take them away.",[3338,3340],{"_20":3327,"_90":2478,"_2479":3339},"00:08:13.500",{"_20":3335,"_90":2478,"_2479":3341},"00:08:25.120",{"_20":3343,"_90":266,"_267":3344,"_275":3350,"_277":278},"6516316a21bf",[3345],{"_20":3346,"_90":271,"_272":3347,"_141":3349},"06f36ad7d843",[3348],"c40ffc2","So maybe aim for simplicity first, and then kind of see if there's demand and people asking for specific features that you could add.",[3351],{"_20":3348,"_90":2478,"_2479":3352},"00:08:30.240",{"_20":3354,"_90":266,"_267":3355,"_275":3364,"_277":278},"1f4a20f10cda",[3356,3360],{"_20":3357,"_90":271,"_272":3358,"_141":2531},"47de6d40bf67",[3359,1150],"43603d0",{"_20":3361,"_90":271,"_272":3362,"_141":3363},"8a948bf54f0b",[3359]," What about you, Kyle? How did you think about bringing big data engineering and infrastructure as a powerful service, but easy to consume for developers?",[3365],{"_20":3359,"_90":2478,"_2479":3366},"00:08:39.419",{"_20":3368,"_90":266,"_267":3369,"_275":3402,"_277":278},"4e74bcc71097",[3370,3374,3378,3381,3386,3389,3394,3397],{"_20":3371,"_90":271,"_272":3372,"_141":3017},"14816b300a8e",[3373,1150],"a8a1e08",{"_20":3375,"_90":271,"_272":3376,"_141":3377},"48e3c24d5540",[3373]," Yeah, I mean we looked at it.",{"_20":3379,"_90":271,"_272":3380,"_141":2462},"5b5e6fe6d3c3",[],{"_20":3382,"_90":271,"_272":3383,"_141":3385},"8de31c848dca",[3384],"20d74d3","We look, and this is kind of our design principle in general.",{"_20":3387,"_90":271,"_272":3388,"_141":2462},"234ed7e47b00",[],{"_20":3390,"_90":271,"_272":3391,"_141":3393},"32f9bb4ea52b",[3392],"8132058","We were early on inspired by, and we figured it might work as a growth hack, by how Heroku went to market, if anyone remembers back in",{"_20":3395,"_90":271,"_272":3396,"_141":2462},"fc4758c0e618",[],{"_20":3398,"_90":271,"_272":3399,"_141":3401},"ed8218ef27e1",[3400],"03ed816","maybe, I don't know how long ago, five, seven years ago, git push heroku master was like on the homepage.",[3403,3405,3407,3409],{"_20":3373,"_90":2478,"_2479":3404},"00:08:48.420",{"_20":3384,"_90":2478,"_2479":3406},"00:08:50.180",{"_20":3392,"_90":2478,"_2479":3408},"00:08:53.139",{"_20":3400,"_90":2478,"_2479":3410},"00:09:01.660",{"_20":3412,"_90":266,"_267":3413,"_275":3443,"_277":278},"0a9e1e2fcdc0",[3414,3419,3422,3427,3430,3435,3438],{"_20":3415,"_90":271,"_272":3416,"_141":3418},"16e59602ef27",[3417],"cae73cf","And that really resonated with us as a sort of, this is the minimum that I would need to do",{"_20":3420,"_90":271,"_272":3421,"_141":2462},"166165d93f8a",[],{"_20":3423,"_90":271,"_272":3424,"_141":3426},"66ad3f6b2af6",[3425],"78597f3","to perform what I'm trying to perform.",{"_20":3428,"_90":271,"_272":3429,"_141":2462},"d61aec75b495",[],{"_20":3431,"_90":271,"_272":3432,"_141":3434},"1ad38dc021b9",[3433],"0b784f2","So we, even today when we're designing a new API feature or a new API product, we start on that.",{"_20":3436,"_90":271,"_272":3437,"_141":2462},"2e1f96a549df",[],{"_20":3439,"_90":271,"_272":3440,"_141":3442},"f08e615f1007",[3441],"df1fdec","Like at the whiteboard level. What is the minimum amount of, well, what Python code would I have to write to use this thing?",[3444,3446,3448,3450],{"_20":3417,"_90":2478,"_2479":3445},"00:09:07.740",{"_20":3425,"_90":2478,"_2479":3447},"00:09:14.900",{"_20":3433,"_90":2478,"_2479":3449},"00:09:16.980",{"_20":3441,"_90":2478,"_2479":3451},"00:09:22.580",{"_20":3453,"_90":266,"_267":3454,"_275":3484,"_277":278},"d63d9ef4271c",[3455,3460,3463,3468,3471,3476,3479],{"_20":3456,"_90":271,"_272":3457,"_141":3459},"2828efe44610",[3458],"b29f226","And my co-founder, head of product, and I kind of, I don't know what the right word is, like torture the team.",{"_20":3461,"_90":271,"_272":3462,"_141":2462},"ae0ba5a37e75",[],{"_20":3464,"_90":271,"_272":3465,"_141":3467},"ae28b053e083",[3466],"efa3fcb","How many nouns are on that board?",{"_20":3469,"_90":271,"_272":3470,"_141":2462},"11712879a714",[],{"_20":3472,"_90":271,"_272":3473,"_141":3475},"eaf0401cbe78",[3474],"6a55a19","There are seven. Could it be six?",{"_20":3477,"_90":271,"_272":3478,"_141":2462},"8506b819dc40",[],{"_20":3480,"_90":271,"_272":3481,"_141":3483},"bd7e26581a6f",[3482],"7ae28cb","Which one would you scrap if you needed it to be six?",[3485,3487,3489,3491],{"_20":3458,"_90":2478,"_2479":3486},"00:09:28.560",{"_20":3466,"_90":2478,"_2479":3488},"00:09:38.259",{"_20":3474,"_90":2478,"_2479":3490},"00:09:40.579",{"_20":3482,"_90":2478,"_2479":3492},"00:09:42.339",{"_20":3494,"_90":266,"_267":3495,"_275":3517,"_277":278},"1be118dcb335",[3496,3501,3504,3509,3512],{"_20":3497,"_90":271,"_272":3498,"_141":3500},"836f506939db",[3499],"b0a3080","Over and over again. Because the thing about building for builders is we're building for developers, but we're not building for distributed data infrastructure engineers.",{"_20":3502,"_90":271,"_272":3503,"_141":2462},"f8dadf09d537",[],{"_20":3505,"_90":271,"_272":3506,"_141":3508},"27f403a1b250",[3507],"3b82404","Because those people are going to build their own.",{"_20":3510,"_90":271,"_272":3511,"_141":2462},"6af8b44f4245",[],{"_20":3513,"_90":271,"_272":3514,"_141":3516},"be51b899c70a",[3515],"a61667b","We're building for people that are higher up in the stack.",[3518,3520,3522],{"_20":3499,"_90":2478,"_2479":3519},"00:09:44.500",{"_20":3507,"_90":2478,"_2479":3521},"00:09:55.420",{"_20":3515,"_90":2478,"_2479":3523},"00:09:57.180",{"_20":3525,"_90":266,"_267":3526,"_275":3548,"_277":278},"fa719c7e90c2",[3527,3532,3535,3540,3543],{"_20":3528,"_90":271,"_272":3529,"_141":3531},"05870f336b2e",[3530],"869c91b","So having somebody design those APIs who knows all the stuff underneath it, I don't know all the stuff underneath it.",{"_20":3533,"_90":271,"_272":3534,"_141":2462},"59f15f3e07fc",[],{"_20":3536,"_90":271,"_272":3537,"_141":3539},"7959943faf58",[3538],"101e0f6","I used to, but I don't.",{"_20":3541,"_90":271,"_272":3542,"_141":2462},"2c1de0fb4ea4",[],{"_20":3544,"_90":271,"_272":3545,"_141":3547},"4fcba5c0faa6",[3546],"451b06a","So I'm still kind of the chief critic on that, because maybe I'm a better critic now because I've no idea what's going on.",[3549,3551,3553],{"_20":3530,"_90":2478,"_2479":3550},"00:09:59.819",{"_20":3538,"_90":2478,"_2479":3552},"00:10:05.420",{"_20":3546,"_90":2478,"_2479":3554},"00:10:06.860",{"_20":3556,"_90":266,"_267":3557,"_275":3587,"_277":1728},"a7db0efee0e9",[3558,3563,3566,3571,3574,3579,3582],{"_20":3559,"_90":271,"_272":3560,"_141":3562},"42b2262fda42",[3561],"45ff4d2","So how many concepts would I have to learn?",{"_20":3564,"_90":271,"_272":3565,"_141":2462},"d66dcbbb90e2",[],{"_20":3567,"_90":271,"_272":3568,"_141":3570},"c4efc15a9ebf",[3569],"f5dd7f6","How many lines of code would I have to write?",{"_20":3572,"_90":271,"_272":3573,"_141":2462},"41c2820d18df",[],{"_20":3575,"_90":271,"_272":3576,"_141":3578},"b948f9db1e20",[3577],"c2ec9c7","I always think about how many nouns are in the system.",{"_20":3580,"_90":271,"_272":3581,"_141":2462},"1c55cc5e8fbd",[],{"_20":3583,"_90":271,"_272":3584,"_141":3586},"709e81030c78",[3585],"a36bd1d","So if I only have to learn one or two things, I might use it.",[3588,3590,3592,3594],{"_20":3561,"_90":2478,"_2479":3589},"00:10:12.240",{"_20":3569,"_90":2478,"_2479":3591},"00:10:14.640",{"_20":3577,"_90":2478,"_2479":3593},"00:10:16.000",{"_20":3585,"_90":2478,"_2479":3595},"00:10:18.960",{"_20":3597,"_90":266,"_267":3598,"_275":3604,"_277":278},"0e6737a7b4ae",[3599],{"_20":3600,"_90":271,"_272":3601,"_141":3603},"235a82a7b28c",[3602],"f8cd04f","So that's the main focus for us.",[3605],{"_20":3602,"_90":2478,"_2479":3606},"00:10:22.800",{"_20":3608,"_90":266,"_267":3609,"_275":3618,"_277":278},"fcb7512991c6",[3610,3614],{"_20":3611,"_90":271,"_272":3612,"_141":2531},"08ff54c44158",[3613,1150],"0c09786",{"_20":3615,"_90":271,"_272":3616,"_141":3617},"257fcd98f0d1",[3613]," What about you, James?",[3619],{"_20":3613,"_90":2478,"_2479":3620},"00:10:25.700",{"_20":3622,"_90":266,"_267":3623,"_275":3648,"_277":278},"edf1e23d297a",[3624,3628,3632,3635,3640,3643],{"_20":3625,"_90":271,"_272":3626,"_141":2885},"2a101f8b93a6",[3627,1150],"a997aca",{"_20":3629,"_90":271,"_272":3630,"_141":3631},"646ffa8f26dd",[3627]," So I think bringing developers simplicity, or building a tool developers would love, I would apply two heuristics.",{"_20":3633,"_90":271,"_272":3634,"_141":2462},"7f6f42fd9365",[],{"_20":3636,"_90":271,"_272":3637,"_141":3639},"7099a699955a",[3638],"9881662","One is sort of, what are the number of steps you can sort of reduce from intent to action, per like Kyle's comments.",{"_20":3641,"_90":271,"_272":3642,"_141":2462},"b5b748dd555f",[],{"_20":3644,"_90":271,"_272":3645,"_141":3647},"37b7252f0566",[3646],"f1bf5c7","I think you'll find a lot of interesting things that way.",[3649,3651,3653],{"_20":3627,"_90":2478,"_2479":3650},"00:10:27.300",{"_20":3638,"_90":2478,"_2479":3652},"00:10:34.339",{"_20":3646,"_90":2478,"_2479":3654},"00:10:42.380",{"_20":3656,"_90":266,"_267":3657,"_275":3679,"_277":278},"1ab8485b092b",[3658,3663,3666,3671,3674],{"_20":3659,"_90":271,"_272":3660,"_141":3662},"d189150f111c",[3661],"afe4add","And then two is to look at larger companies and what they've built,",{"_20":3664,"_90":271,"_272":3665,"_141":2462},"2b866992e221",[],{"_20":3667,"_90":271,"_272":3668,"_141":3670},"b7d4959174d4",[3669],"8677e02","and then either pull that out and make it more generalizable, or learn from them as best you can.",{"_20":3672,"_90":271,"_272":3673,"_141":2462},"10a89ea16cc9",[],{"_20":3675,"_90":271,"_272":3676,"_141":3678},"46eb8b0c638a",[3677],"6631fb3","So Google and Apple and all these big companies have built a ton of this really interesting stuff.",[3680,3682,3684],{"_20":3661,"_90":2478,"_2479":3681},"00:10:44.940",{"_20":3669,"_90":2478,"_2479":3683},"00:10:49.460",{"_20":3677,"_90":2478,"_2479":3685},"00:10:57.140",{"_20":3687,"_90":266,"_267":3688,"_275":3710,"_277":1728},"d066498e22c6",[3689,3694,3697,3702,3705],{"_20":3690,"_90":271,"_272":3691,"_141":3693},"56b4125ad44a",[3692],"940e6b0","They had to build all these SMS gateways, and then Twilio came along and generalized it.",{"_20":3695,"_90":271,"_272":3696,"_141":2462},"d6b872954f17",[],{"_20":3698,"_90":271,"_272":3699,"_141":3701},"51c02ff4e407",[3700],"457a28f","A bunch of people had payment processing stuff, and then Stripe gave it to everyone.",{"_20":3703,"_90":271,"_272":3704,"_141":2462},"c618cbf6fc3c",[],{"_20":3706,"_90":271,"_272":3707,"_141":3709},"679c48e9c6ae",[3708],"ec7a82e","Google started to do their own kind of stuff with Kubernetes, where they externalized this thing they have called Borg, which is like fifteen years old at this point.",[3711,3713,3715],{"_20":3692,"_90":2478,"_2479":3712},"00:11:03.800",{"_20":3700,"_90":2478,"_2479":3714},"00:11:07.560",{"_20":3708,"_90":2478,"_2479":3716},"00:11:11.160",{"_20":3718,"_90":266,"_267":3719,"_275":3733,"_277":278},"517ecb9a194c",[3720,3725,3728],{"_20":3721,"_90":271,"_272":3722,"_141":3724},"92861f9eeeb1",[3723],"d6d9395","But there's a ton of these tools that have sort of yet to be made general purpose.",{"_20":3726,"_90":271,"_272":3727,"_141":2462},"ffc82cc34d1a",[],{"_20":3729,"_90":271,"_272":3730,"_141":3732},"dad81e576890",[3731],"1c9e53b","And so those are the two areas I would look for, if you're looking to build both something developers love and a viable business.",[3734,3736],{"_20":3723,"_90":2478,"_2479":3735},"00:11:19.980",{"_20":3731,"_90":2478,"_2479":3737},"00:11:25.339",{"_20":3739,"_90":266,"_267":3740,"_275":3745,"_277":368},"b387518f7354",[3741],{"_20":3742,"_90":271,"_272":3743,"_141":3744},"37357d585152",[],"Onboarding and Delight",[],{"_20":3747,"_90":266,"_267":3748,"_275":3773,"_277":278},"8173ad4173cb",[3749,3753,3757,3760,3765,3768],{"_20":3750,"_90":271,"_272":3751,"_141":2531},"58ef230057e2",[3752,1150],"fb0c0bd",{"_20":3754,"_90":271,"_272":3755,"_141":3756},"c2c4c0a7a0d8",[3752]," And there's really a lot of developer tools out there now.",{"_20":3758,"_90":271,"_272":3759,"_141":2462},"247122c59535",[],{"_20":3761,"_90":271,"_272":3762,"_141":3764},"c66d8e85784e",[3763],"7a189a6","It's a growing number every single week.",{"_20":3766,"_90":271,"_272":3767,"_141":2462},"7cf1a1ed2c38",[],{"_20":3769,"_90":271,"_272":3770,"_141":3772},"d819fc5f6590",[3771],"58a21f9","You mentioned, Kyle, the Heroku example back in the days.",[3774,3776,3778],{"_20":3752,"_90":2478,"_2479":3775},"00:11:33.560",{"_20":3763,"_90":2478,"_2479":3777},"00:11:35.800",{"_20":3771,"_90":2478,"_2479":3779},"00:11:37.960",{"_20":3781,"_90":266,"_267":3782,"_275":3804,"_277":278},"35453fb463ca",[3783,3788,3791,3796,3799],{"_20":3784,"_90":271,"_272":3785,"_141":3787},"88bd2e9911dc",[3786],"476dbc4","What are some other interesting practices that you've seen in the wild from your peers, or even other categories, when it comes to building something really",{"_20":3789,"_90":271,"_272":3790,"_141":2462},"886c0867e49d",[],{"_20":3792,"_90":271,"_272":3793,"_141":3795},"9135b9e9dd97",[3794],"2ba55c5","delightful for developers to dive in.",{"_20":3797,"_90":271,"_272":3798,"_141":2462},"78f18a190802",[],{"_20":3800,"_90":271,"_272":3801,"_141":3803},"b80942ecab2a",[3802],"4111a5c","Both actually. Yeah.",[3805,3807,3809],{"_20":3786,"_90":2478,"_2479":3806},"00:11:41.080",{"_20":3794,"_90":2478,"_2479":3808},"00:11:51.019",{"_20":3802,"_90":2478,"_2479":3810},"00:11:58.260",{"_20":3812,"_90":266,"_267":3813,"_275":3838,"_277":278},"52a781c63c67",[3814,3818,3822,3825,3830,3833],{"_20":3815,"_90":271,"_272":3816,"_141":2885},"1d1b044ed6e6",[3817,1150],"1442cb5",{"_20":3819,"_90":271,"_272":3820,"_141":3821},"08d479a48c63",[3817]," I really like what Keen does, they send care packages to their developers and will handwrite on the box.",{"_20":3823,"_90":271,"_272":3824,"_141":2462},"7bdaf34523bd",[],{"_20":3826,"_90":271,"_272":3827,"_141":3829},"20560c33ef3f",[3828],"4cfb5be","Which generates a ton of love and trust, which is probably a theme that'll come up quite a bit.",{"_20":3831,"_90":271,"_272":3832,"_141":2462},"30fccc8fcfa7",[],{"_20":3834,"_90":271,"_272":3835,"_141":3837},"78525ea4d2ff",[3836],"e66ab27","Yeah. But I really like what you do there.",[3839,3841,3843],{"_20":3817,"_90":2478,"_2479":3840},"00:12:00.100",{"_20":3828,"_90":2478,"_2479":3842},"00:12:07.380",{"_20":3836,"_90":2478,"_2479":3844},"00:12:12.980",{"_20":3846,"_90":266,"_267":3847,"_275":3872,"_277":278},"702ab2240a33",[3848,3852,3856,3859,3864,3867],{"_20":3849,"_90":271,"_272":3850,"_141":2920},"2ec5625a2e03",[3851,1150],"607690d",{"_20":3853,"_90":271,"_272":3854,"_141":3855},"15501eb2c7de",[3851]," I really like it when folks have a tool on their website that allow you to interactively explore an API.",{"_20":3857,"_90":271,"_272":3858,"_141":2462},"9c97639c404a",[],{"_20":3860,"_90":271,"_272":3861,"_141":3863},"d10dac543ec2",[3862],"b65ebb4","So using an example account, run queries on that account, which makes it a lot easier to just kind of explore and figure out, does this API do what I want?",{"_20":3865,"_90":271,"_272":3866,"_141":2462},"56a4e948ec81",[],{"_20":3868,"_90":271,"_272":3869,"_141":3871},"679aa6d565f7",[3870],"4165adb","What does the response look like from this? Which can be a little nicer than just reading straight docs.",[3873,3875,3877],{"_20":3851,"_90":2478,"_2479":3874},"00:12:14.820",{"_20":3862,"_90":2478,"_2479":3876},"00:12:23.460",{"_20":3870,"_90":2478,"_2479":3878},"00:12:34.100",{"_20":3880,"_90":266,"_267":3881,"_275":3898,"_277":278},"5960a79ac978",[3882,3886,3890,3893],{"_20":3883,"_90":271,"_272":3884,"_141":2531},"857b51b0c6de",[3885,1150],"7466065",{"_20":3887,"_90":271,"_272":3888,"_141":3889},"7db64f7bca88",[3885]," Yep, cool. And we often know that developers' happiness can really drive success for a community,",{"_20":3891,"_90":271,"_272":3892,"_141":2462},"7a46497e12fa",[],{"_20":3894,"_90":271,"_272":3895,"_141":3897},"84aa7f52afaf",[3896],"62c0e5d","or even success for a product.",[3899,3901],{"_20":3885,"_90":2478,"_2479":3900},"00:12:39.520",{"_20":3896,"_90":2478,"_2479":3902},"00:12:47.580",{"_20":3904,"_90":266,"_267":3905,"_275":3927,"_277":278},"f2c79e750b89",[3906,3911,3914,3919,3922],{"_20":3907,"_90":271,"_272":3908,"_141":3910},"fa9374dcbef7",[3909],"172913d","What are the things that you all have done in particular at various stages of the product that help developers get onboarded, or have this moment of delight when they use your products?",{"_20":3912,"_90":271,"_272":3913,"_141":2462},"6a89386df8e1",[],{"_20":3915,"_90":271,"_272":3916,"_141":3918},"b984976a4a99",[3917],"2e3ea47","Are there any tips and tricks that you found along the way, or some precise details about the onboarding that really worked out really well for those communities of developers?",{"_20":3920,"_90":271,"_272":3921,"_141":2462},"906b4331e030",[],{"_20":3923,"_90":271,"_272":3924,"_141":3926},"6decc4ebe932",[3925],"ea54d1a","I don't know if whenever you want to.",[3928,3930,3932],{"_20":3909,"_90":2478,"_2479":3929},"00:12:49.500",{"_20":3917,"_90":2478,"_2479":3931},"00:13:00.060",{"_20":3925,"_90":2478,"_2479":3933},"00:13:10.200",{"_20":3935,"_90":266,"_267":3936,"_275":3969,"_277":278},"7a7cf5b09c22",[3937,3941,3945,3948,3953,3956,3961,3964],{"_20":3938,"_90":271,"_272":3939,"_141":3017},"845595ee2c0d",[3940,1150],"d1e74da",{"_20":3942,"_90":271,"_272":3943,"_141":3944},"2476d23086a9",[3940]," I mean, so there's the specifics, and then there's kind of the process of how to get to those specifics.",{"_20":3946,"_90":271,"_272":3947,"_141":2462},"8ee892933ccb",[],{"_20":3949,"_90":271,"_272":3950,"_141":3952},"9705b373a37f",[3951],"34a5c57","One of the things we started in the early days, and it was easier when there were only two or three new developers a day coming into the site, is everyone would get an email from one of us that says, hey, if you're gonna build something,",{"_20":3954,"_90":271,"_272":3955,"_141":2462},"3276c044aeb9",[],{"_20":3957,"_90":271,"_272":3958,"_141":3960},"28dd18c2429b",[3959],"c84eb52","would you like to pair a program with somebody from our team?",{"_20":3962,"_90":271,"_272":3963,"_141":2462},"126057e72c2b",[],{"_20":3965,"_90":271,"_272":3966,"_141":3968},"049cf7b39a8a",[3967],"aa2c23c","And we still do that. That's more than an order of magnitude more volume, and a couple of things happen from that.",[3970,3972,3974,3976],{"_20":3940,"_90":2478,"_2479":3971},"00:13:12.200",{"_20":3951,"_90":2478,"_2479":3973},"00:13:17.320",{"_20":3959,"_90":2478,"_2479":3975},"00:13:28.440",{"_20":3967,"_90":2478,"_2479":3977},"00:13:31.000",{"_20":3979,"_90":266,"_267":3980,"_275":3994,"_277":278},"32a9544538b1",[3981,3986,3989],{"_20":3982,"_90":271,"_272":3983,"_141":3985},"0bcd8a094da9",[3984],"b9ba3f5","One, very few people actually want a pair program with some random person.",{"_20":3987,"_90":271,"_272":3988,"_141":2462},"ed51675e26f4",[],{"_20":3990,"_90":271,"_272":3991,"_141":3993},"ccfc7fe2adb6",[3992],"d7c5f80","They'd rather figure it out. But people who do want a pair program can give a lot of signal.",[3995,3997],{"_20":3984,"_90":2478,"_2479":3996},"00:13:38.500",{"_20":3992,"_90":2478,"_2479":3998},"00:13:42.660",{"_20":4000,"_90":266,"_267":4001,"_275":4015,"_277":1728},"c8a3b399e039",[4002,4007,4010],{"_20":4003,"_90":271,"_272":4004,"_141":4006},"afbb923f29f6",[4005],"62274b5","But two, we get to watch, we get to see, and we get to feel what it's like to learn from scratch.",{"_20":4008,"_90":271,"_272":4009,"_141":2462},"85d812259fe0",[],{"_20":4011,"_90":271,"_272":4012,"_141":4014},"4340970dc082",[4013],"ac26009","I haven't found a way to replace that process.",[4016,4018],{"_20":4005,"_90":2478,"_2479":4017},"00:13:47.420",{"_20":4013,"_90":2478,"_2479":4019},"00:13:53.680",{"_20":4021,"_90":266,"_267":4022,"_275":4044,"_277":278},"088ceaf9c5b1",[4023,4028,4031,4036,4039],{"_20":4024,"_90":271,"_272":4025,"_141":4027},"56e818041292",[4026],"199dd14","It's because every time we add new product, or we change the documentation, or we change the onboarding flow, being able to screen share with somebody during that is pretty valuable.",{"_20":4029,"_90":271,"_272":4030,"_141":2462},"bc675fc29656",[],{"_20":4032,"_90":271,"_272":4033,"_141":4035},"82d9ba327a98",[4034],"01352c2","I'm only doing like one of these every other month right now, but people that do real work across the company are doing it more.",{"_20":4037,"_90":271,"_272":4038,"_141":2462},"a39c900ca1dd",[],{"_20":4040,"_90":271,"_272":4041,"_141":4043},"21b5f7362ad1",[4042],"4869ccb","That's been great for finding the specifics also.",[4045,4047,4049],{"_20":4026,"_90":2478,"_2479":4046},"00:13:56.400",{"_20":4034,"_90":2478,"_2479":4048},"00:14:04.160",{"_20":4042,"_90":2478,"_2479":4050},"00:14:11.120",{"_20":4052,"_90":266,"_267":4053,"_275":4070,"_277":278},"39a7e3bed963",[4054,4058,4062,4065],{"_20":4055,"_90":271,"_272":4056,"_141":2885},"f08e38efdcfd",[4057,1150],"db92e09",{"_20":4059,"_90":271,"_272":4060,"_141":4061},"fbe9347c3d55",[4057]," I think that's a really important point, is like imbuing your team with the knowledge of what it's like to use your product.",{"_20":4063,"_90":271,"_272":4064,"_141":2462},"775506e7d93a",[],{"_20":4066,"_90":271,"_272":4067,"_141":4069},"f28521f7130b",[4068],"e93ed75","You can get lost in the details and lose track of what the experience is like, or what your community thinks and feels about your product.",[4071,4073],{"_20":4057,"_90":2478,"_2479":4072},"00:14:14.980",{"_20":4068,"_90":2478,"_2479":4074},"00:14:23.699",{"_20":4076,"_90":266,"_267":4077,"_275":4099,"_277":278},"f2035638f178",[4078,4083,4086,4091,4094],{"_20":4079,"_90":271,"_272":4080,"_141":4082},"4a31e6a3c5b5",[4081],"502dfb4","We try and mimic that in a bunch of different ways. From the beginning and even now, we have every new developer who starts at Firebase build a brand new application in their first week and report back to the product.",{"_20":4084,"_90":271,"_272":4085,"_141":2462},"f14762f2022d",[],{"_20":4087,"_90":271,"_272":4088,"_141":4090},"df9600bb8e56",[4089],"a75275d","When we were a startup, we'd bring people into our office and present what they'd built over lunch.",{"_20":4092,"_90":271,"_272":4093,"_141":2462},"9f9b42d73c4f",[],{"_20":4095,"_90":271,"_272":4096,"_141":4098},"8cf8c32b8e43",[4097],"4e0fdd2","But the pair programming is really, really next level.",[4100,4102,4104],{"_20":4081,"_90":2478,"_2479":4101},"00:14:32.740",{"_20":4089,"_90":2478,"_2479":4103},"00:14:44.560",{"_20":4097,"_90":2478,"_2479":4105},"00:14:51.040",{"_20":4107,"_90":266,"_267":4108,"_275":4138,"_277":278},"ecf0f8014a72",[4109,4114,4117,4122,4125,4130,4133],{"_20":4110,"_90":271,"_272":4111,"_141":4113},"b35a39fecf1c",[4112],"a4f6c1d","What we tried to do a little bit, in our user research feedback, we'd bring developers in and put them in front of a video camera",{"_20":4115,"_90":271,"_272":4116,"_141":2462},"2c263161b7e5",[],{"_20":4118,"_90":271,"_272":4119,"_141":4121},"293369cc5598",[4120],"bddaf85","and sort of some of that standard stuff.",{"_20":4123,"_90":271,"_272":4124,"_141":2462},"0fe133c04a46",[],{"_20":4126,"_90":271,"_272":4127,"_141":4129},"974240c12296",[4128],"05d814e","One of the other things in terms of the time to aha moment that we did that was really, really successful was we had an interactive tutorial on our homepage for like the first couple of years,",{"_20":4131,"_90":271,"_272":4132,"_141":2462},"aa0351883e17",[],{"_20":4134,"_90":271,"_272":4135,"_141":4137},"755667458c54",[4136],"55fb314","and it would walk you through step by step.",[4139,4141,4143,4145],{"_20":4112,"_90":2478,"_2479":4140},"00:14:55.760",{"_20":4120,"_90":2478,"_2479":4142},"00:15:03.940",{"_20":4128,"_90":2478,"_2479":4144},"00:15:06.020",{"_20":4136,"_90":2478,"_2479":4146},"00:15:17.839",{"_20":4148,"_90":266,"_267":4149,"_275":4163,"_277":278},"46acc66cb53d",[4150,4155,4158],{"_20":4151,"_90":271,"_272":4152,"_141":4154},"3d86c9a614d5",[4153],"b22ac27","And you could either type out the code or just click next, and we would just auto-populate it if you were lazy or didn't want to do it.",{"_20":4156,"_90":271,"_272":4157,"_141":2462},"2ca5687108bf",[],{"_20":4159,"_90":271,"_272":4160,"_141":4162},"e193649fa9a9",[4161],"6e6b10b","And it would build you a working application that you could then take and deploy.",[4164,4166],{"_20":4153,"_90":2478,"_2479":4165},"00:15:20.320",{"_20":4161,"_90":2478,"_2479":4167},"00:15:28.860",{"_20":4169,"_90":266,"_267":4170,"_275":4200,"_277":278},"6ac37c3ebe80",[4171,4176,4179,4184,4187,4192,4195],{"_20":4172,"_90":271,"_272":4173,"_141":4175},"28b265ac4085",[4174],"f95e2e7","And it was massively, massively successful.",{"_20":4177,"_90":271,"_272":4178,"_141":2462},"f552ae9c7539",[],{"_20":4180,"_90":271,"_272":4181,"_141":4183},"4c4fdeedc9c2",[4182],"5a71fc4","And I think the activation rate for people who went through that interactive tutorial was something like fifty percent,",{"_20":4185,"_90":271,"_272":4186,"_141":2462},"595d964903a1",[],{"_20":4188,"_90":271,"_272":4189,"_141":4191},"5f5c6b632232",[4190],"29f1e34","like between day zero and day thirty.",{"_20":4193,"_90":271,"_272":4194,"_141":2462},"7f24681372bb",[],{"_20":4196,"_90":271,"_272":4197,"_141":4199},"13d50d25eb49",[4198],"7e77da3","It was really worthwhile.",[4201,4203,4205,4207],{"_20":4174,"_90":2478,"_2479":4202},"00:15:33.900",{"_20":4182,"_90":2478,"_2479":4204},"00:15:36.060",{"_20":4190,"_90":2478,"_2479":4206},"00:15:43.080",{"_20":4198,"_90":2478,"_2479":4208},"00:15:46.920",{"_20":4210,"_90":266,"_267":4211,"_275":4236,"_277":278},"efedee81ded1",[4212,4216,4220,4223,4228,4231],{"_20":4213,"_90":271,"_272":4214,"_141":2920},"cee090b884fc",[4215,1150],"bf77529",{"_20":4217,"_90":271,"_272":4218,"_141":4219},"b7fb4ddbb038",[4215]," I think some specifics kind of from our experience.",{"_20":4221,"_90":271,"_272":4222,"_141":2462},"02af6a9e431b",[],{"_20":4224,"_90":271,"_272":4225,"_141":4227},"3862e14e0491",[4226],"2db3e4a","We learned a lot about how people were trying to use the product actually from our sales process.",{"_20":4229,"_90":271,"_272":4230,"_141":2462},"e979ccfb8664",[],{"_20":4232,"_90":271,"_272":4233,"_141":4235},"0201ec246c8d",[4234],"c811495","A lot of folks kind of go and Google, how do I integrate with email, and find us on their own.",[4237,4239,4241],{"_20":4215,"_90":2478,"_2479":4238},"00:15:50.660",{"_20":4226,"_90":2478,"_2479":4240},"00:15:55.459",{"_20":4234,"_90":2478,"_2479":4242},"00:16:01.680",{"_20":4244,"_90":266,"_267":4245,"_275":4259,"_277":278},"91ec28752907",[4246,4251,4254],{"_20":4247,"_90":271,"_272":4248,"_141":4250},"a4b9a82ebc5b",[4249],"c8fd5eb","And then they reach out to our sales team, and they have their developers and they're trying to build, and actually through that process that's how we",{"_20":4252,"_90":271,"_272":4253,"_141":2462},"324b73d2ddce",[],{"_20":4255,"_90":271,"_272":4256,"_141":4258},"373dd74a0d16",[4257],"48fefb4","engage with them and see how they're trying to build, what APIs they're trying to use, kind of see what the pain points are.",[4260,4262],{"_20":4249,"_90":2478,"_2479":4261},"00:16:06.880",{"_20":4257,"_90":2478,"_2479":4263},"00:16:15.000",{"_20":4265,"_90":266,"_267":4266,"_275":4280,"_277":278},"ccfefab6c74d",[4267,4272,4275],{"_20":4268,"_90":271,"_272":4269,"_141":4271},"bcdab3eb4e0e",[4270],"4b260fd","And one thing that kind of came out of that in the early days is that one of the hardest parts of integrating with our API is actually connecting an email account and authenticating it.",{"_20":4273,"_90":271,"_272":4274,"_141":2462},"a22e3a8b4575",[],{"_20":4276,"_90":271,"_272":4277,"_141":4279},"2781a57950ca",[4278],"2065a67","So what we ended up doing was building into our developer portal a way to connect an account from the developer portal.",[4281,4283],{"_20":4270,"_90":2478,"_2479":4282},"00:16:21.640",{"_20":4278,"_90":2478,"_2479":4284},"00:16:31.120",{"_20":4286,"_90":266,"_267":4287,"_275":4309,"_277":278},"e9c35dc0c7e0",[4288,4293,4296,4301,4304],{"_20":4289,"_90":271,"_272":4290,"_141":4292},"b2ff4736e3c4",[4291],"40e773f","So say you're a developer that just wants to play around.",{"_20":4294,"_90":271,"_272":4295,"_141":2462},"8d0daa032275",[],{"_20":4297,"_90":271,"_272":4298,"_141":4300},"e3f3406210ce",[4299],"e44b5b1","You can go through the auth flow right in the browser, instead of having to bootstrap your app and kind of get everything going.",{"_20":4302,"_90":271,"_272":4303,"_141":2462},"7520dd24da5f",[],{"_20":4305,"_90":271,"_272":4306,"_141":4308},"fe96a9698975",[4307],"2333e22","And then you get an access token and you can go and plug that into curl and actually get messages.",[4310,4312,4314],{"_20":4291,"_90":2478,"_2479":4311},"00:16:40.020",{"_20":4299,"_90":2478,"_2479":4313},"00:16:43.060",{"_20":4307,"_90":2478,"_2479":4315},"00:16:51.180",{"_20":4317,"_90":266,"_267":4318,"_275":4323,"_277":368},"5ac3766ec79e",[4319],{"_20":4320,"_90":271,"_272":4321,"_141":4322},"f594cc23997e",[],"Things That Don't Scale",[],{"_20":4325,"_90":266,"_267":4326,"_275":4343,"_277":278},"f50fde0359cd",[4327,4331,4335,4338],{"_20":4328,"_90":271,"_272":4329,"_141":2531},"4733e2ace0ab",[4330,1150],"016a8c9",{"_20":4332,"_90":271,"_272":4333,"_141":4334},"75b4edaf528b",[4330]," So you mentioned both product and documentation ideas, and some process ideas around how to watch your customers.",{"_20":4336,"_90":271,"_272":4337,"_141":2462},"5b3f889d53f8",[],{"_20":4339,"_90":271,"_272":4340,"_141":4342},"34835edc0a53",[4341],"4fabadb","What would you say some of the unscalable things you had done in the early days would be.",[4344,4346],{"_20":4330,"_90":2478,"_2479":4345},"00:16:57.459",{"_20":4341,"_90":2478,"_2479":4347},"00:17:04.100",{"_20":4349,"_90":266,"_267":4350,"_275":4372,"_277":278},"f95eac38e107",[4351,4356,4359,4364,4367],{"_20":4352,"_90":271,"_272":4353,"_141":4355},"4e5ac32e285e",[4354],"4de4b98","Like typically I think for you, Kyle, I read that you were also like a support person on the Google Analytics team a while ago, right?",{"_20":4357,"_90":271,"_272":4358,"_141":2462},"20acb4b192c0",[],{"_20":4360,"_90":271,"_272":4361,"_141":4363},"3db9a377fb4e",[4362],"e203e35","And so building up on the point you just made before, you said that earlier in the Keen existence the secret sauce was also to have this support team really being hands-on",{"_20":4365,"_90":271,"_272":4366,"_141":2462},"04103af1d54e",[],{"_20":4368,"_90":271,"_272":4369,"_141":4371},"f47a0f025eca",[4370],"c4eeef4","with developers. Is that something that you consider today unscalable, or something you would actually try to push as long as you can?",[4373,4375,4377],{"_20":4354,"_90":2478,"_2479":4374},"00:17:09.360",{"_20":4362,"_90":2478,"_2479":4376},"00:17:18.000",{"_20":4370,"_90":2478,"_2479":4378},"00:17:29.980",{"_20":4380,"_90":266,"_267":4381,"_275":4406,"_277":278},"727896d4625a",[4382,4386,4390,4393,4398,4401],{"_20":4383,"_90":271,"_272":4384,"_141":3017},"2a37324d8578",[4385,1150],"d667209",{"_20":4387,"_90":271,"_272":4388,"_141":4389},"4fd802b07b7a",[4385]," Yeah, it's both.",{"_20":4391,"_90":271,"_272":4392,"_141":2462},"4eb59cf285ca",[],{"_20":4394,"_90":271,"_272":4395,"_141":4397},"7dfec3c537a0",[4396],"7e7b823","I consider it to be unscalable based on the evidence, and yeah, I keep pushing it as hard as I can.",{"_20":4399,"_90":271,"_272":4400,"_141":2462},"91a4c82f0efd",[],{"_20":4402,"_90":271,"_272":4403,"_141":4405},"2095165a2536",[4404],"fd2899e","Through about twenty-five people, we had a policy of everyone rotating through support on some interval, so there wasn't a support team.",[4407,4409,4411],{"_20":4385,"_90":2478,"_2479":4408},"00:17:36.539",{"_20":4396,"_90":2478,"_2479":4410},"00:17:38.780",{"_20":4404,"_90":2478,"_2479":4412},"00:17:44.919",{"_20":4414,"_90":266,"_267":4415,"_275":4429,"_277":278},"3db409f193c6",[4416,4421,4424],{"_20":4417,"_90":271,"_272":4418,"_141":4420},"b9ed70937cc6",[4419],"c68ebed","We've dialed that down a little bit.",{"_20":4422,"_90":271,"_272":4423,"_141":2462},"b4967db52c6b",[],{"_20":4425,"_90":271,"_272":4426,"_141":4428},"305c2d671914",[4427],"3651507","Suffice it to say it's still a pretty important part of everyone's career here, even if it's not like every three months you're gonna spend two days just doing support.",[4430,4432],{"_20":4419,"_90":2478,"_2479":4431},"00:17:53.900",{"_20":4427,"_90":2478,"_2479":4433},"00:17:55.980",{"_20":4435,"_90":266,"_267":4436,"_275":4466,"_277":278},"63ec1b88da48",[4437,4442,4445,4450,4453,4458,4461],{"_20":4438,"_90":271,"_272":4439,"_141":4441},"a5af9e5ae5a1",[4440],"f11e303","The kinds of support tickets that come in have become more noise, right?",{"_20":4443,"_90":271,"_272":4444,"_141":2462},"74747898936e",[],{"_20":4446,"_90":271,"_272":4447,"_141":4449},"e6ff65a9053b",[4448],"cfdb754","Because it's like a bunch of people with billing issues.",{"_20":4451,"_90":271,"_272":4452,"_141":2462},"7a96c0fcc319",[],{"_20":4454,"_90":271,"_272":4455,"_141":4457},"06fde4ef1419",[4456],"b8002e5","Is a platform engineer really gonna learn about how the product feels",{"_20":4459,"_90":271,"_272":4460,"_141":2462},"bdb0c77d22a6",[],{"_20":4462,"_90":271,"_272":4463,"_141":4465},"280c48be5c41",[4464],"1a18610","if it's kind of the same kind of repetitive billing issue ticket?",[4467,4469,4471,4473],{"_20":4440,"_90":2478,"_2479":4468},"00:18:02.820",{"_20":4448,"_90":2478,"_2479":4470},"00:18:07.300",{"_20":4456,"_90":2478,"_2479":4472},"00:18:09.300",{"_20":4464,"_90":2478,"_2479":4474},"00:18:12.540",{"_20":4476,"_90":266,"_267":4477,"_275":4499,"_277":278},"557f60251668",[4478,4483,4486,4491,4494],{"_20":4479,"_90":271,"_272":4480,"_141":4482},"47aa40f087cc",[4481],"37f7323","So I think that inserting a triage layer is the right kind of approach.",{"_20":4484,"_90":271,"_272":4485,"_141":2462},"64dc8f09c3e9",[],{"_20":4487,"_90":271,"_272":4488,"_141":4490},"39cd67a7d3fd",[4489],"ad37661","So like at Google Analytics, I sat a couple of escalation queues deep, right?",{"_20":4492,"_90":271,"_272":4493,"_141":2462},"16385b20a46a",[],{"_20":4495,"_90":271,"_272":4496,"_141":4498},"d42ca777d67a",[4497],"fd804c1","So after the triage layer, there are a bunch of engineers who could actually look at the code.",[4500,4502,4504],{"_20":4481,"_90":2478,"_2479":4501},"00:18:16.220",{"_20":4489,"_90":2478,"_2479":4503},"00:18:19.420",{"_20":4497,"_90":2478,"_2479":4505},"00:18:24.260",{"_20":4507,"_90":266,"_267":4508,"_275":4522,"_277":278},"9cfbe6d9076c",[4509,4514,4517],{"_20":4510,"_90":271,"_272":4511,"_141":4513},"a8cd10b00654",[4512],"89b7cc6","We'll probably do that. But I would say scalable or not scalable,",{"_20":4515,"_90":271,"_272":4516,"_141":2462},"73a8c0f6326c",[],{"_20":4518,"_90":271,"_272":4519,"_141":4521},"09a22f36047e",[4520],"aea0345","good product is super scalable, and if you do this for the first few years you'll get closer to good product.",[4523,4525],{"_20":4512,"_90":2478,"_2479":4524},"00:18:28.500",{"_20":4520,"_90":2478,"_2479":4526},"00:18:32.880",{"_20":4528,"_90":266,"_267":4529,"_275":4543,"_277":1728},"a1c3ca957f79",[4530,4535,4538],{"_20":4531,"_90":271,"_272":4532,"_141":4534},"fcf4a4ebad91",[4533],"3551eb4","Instead of the whole disconnect between people making things and the people using them.",{"_20":4536,"_90":271,"_272":4537,"_141":2462},"4b5b660b08f8",[],{"_20":4539,"_90":271,"_272":4540,"_141":4542},"f71c602cf0a5",[4541],"761b17f","If you're forced to confront the design shortcut that you took and see it like five or six times affect customers' lives, you probably won't take as many shortcuts.",[4544,4546],{"_20":4533,"_90":2478,"_2479":4545},"00:18:38.240",{"_20":4541,"_90":2478,"_2479":4547},"00:18:43.639",{"_20":4549,"_90":266,"_267":4550,"_275":4572,"_277":278},"a267274f957b",[4551,4556,4559,4564,4567],{"_20":4552,"_90":271,"_272":4553,"_141":4555},"9366d2943117",[4554],"d8586a4","So I wish we could do it at our size now.",{"_20":4557,"_90":271,"_272":4558,"_141":2462},"a158fd220424",[],{"_20":4560,"_90":271,"_272":4561,"_141":4563},"280eb08e73e3",[4562],"ab8b87b","I'm looking for the kind of way to the next kind of scale hack to make it work.",{"_20":4565,"_90":271,"_272":4566,"_141":2462},"9e1bbf953c2a",[],{"_20":4568,"_90":271,"_272":4569,"_141":4571},"43a8f2010bcb",[4570],"5010108","It's really important.",[4573,4575,4577],{"_20":4554,"_90":2478,"_2479":4574},"00:18:53.000",{"_20":4562,"_90":2478,"_2479":4576},"00:18:56.200",{"_20":4570,"_90":2478,"_2479":4578},"00:19:01.000",{"_20":4580,"_90":266,"_267":4581,"_275":4598,"_277":278},"383e92d4a1b0",[4582,4586,4590,4593],{"_20":4583,"_90":271,"_272":4584,"_141":2531},"da80c8376aa2",[4585,1150],"593cede",{"_20":4587,"_90":271,"_272":4588,"_141":4589},"6be4be66f7a5",[4585]," One example from the Stripe side in the early days was that obviously Patrick and John was spending a lot of time with the early Stripe users, like you mentioned, but they also were receiving by email every API request log",{"_20":4591,"_90":271,"_272":4592,"_141":2462},"7d5d1cf98728",[],{"_20":4594,"_90":271,"_272":4595,"_141":4597},"1ea452dc39f3",[4596],"effc5a9","to their inbox. They would try to understand in the very very early days how the API was used, and which parameters would be",[4599,4601],{"_20":4585,"_90":2478,"_2479":4600},"00:19:01.960",{"_20":4596,"_90":2478,"_2479":4602},"00:19:12.920",{"_20":4604,"_90":266,"_267":4605,"_275":4627,"_277":278},"1d60d542a28f",[4606,4611,4614,4619,4622],{"_20":4607,"_90":271,"_272":4608,"_141":4610},"ce7cac2bd517",[4609],"f24e3d5","missing or something, being like, oh okay, the developer is stuck because they made this mistake in the API, we should document it better, and so on and so forth.",{"_20":4612,"_90":271,"_272":4613,"_141":2462},"c647bf4ff1f8",[],{"_20":4615,"_90":271,"_272":4616,"_141":4618},"d7163fc2a0f1",[4617],"3473a60","Kind of the unscalable things that are actually valuable in the early days of building a developer product.",{"_20":4620,"_90":271,"_272":4621,"_141":2462},"a8f8b9a045aa",[],{"_20":4623,"_90":271,"_272":4624,"_141":4626},"90aa8004970f",[4625],"07707f3","I don't know if you had some tips of unscalable things that were super valuable for you on the Nylas or Firebase side of things.",[4628,4630,4632],{"_20":4609,"_90":2478,"_2479":4629},"00:19:19.360",{"_20":4617,"_90":2478,"_2479":4631},"00:19:26.060",{"_20":4625,"_90":2478,"_2479":4633},"00:19:30.780",{"_20":4635,"_90":266,"_267":4636,"_275":4661,"_277":278},"4eff67d6e789",[4637,4641,4645,4648,4653,4656],{"_20":4638,"_90":271,"_272":4639,"_141":2920},"43a831f9c2c7",[4640,1150],"d27fcec",{"_20":4642,"_90":271,"_272":4643,"_141":4644},"0dbeebcd88a3",[4640]," Yeah, I mean I would second what Kyle said.",{"_20":4646,"_90":271,"_272":4647,"_141":2462},"90b696513029",[],{"_20":4649,"_90":271,"_272":4650,"_141":4652},"0189019ad43c",[4651],"4ff7c20","We also went through a phase where our engineering team was handling the entire support load. So we launched a free mail client and got tons of support and lots of",{"_20":4654,"_90":271,"_272":4655,"_141":2462},"300e84d68010",[],{"_20":4657,"_90":271,"_272":4658,"_141":4660},"cf3a2680c264",[4659],"fd64cf9","interesting feedback. And so every other day we would time box the engineering team dealing with the support backlog, into like an hour in the morning.",[4662,4664,4666],{"_20":4640,"_90":2478,"_2479":4663},"00:19:39.360",{"_20":4651,"_90":2478,"_2479":4665},"00:19:41.919",{"_20":4659,"_90":2478,"_2479":4667},"00:19:53.440",{"_20":4669,"_90":266,"_267":4670,"_275":4684,"_277":278},"ba51f311d686",[4671,4676,4679],{"_20":4672,"_90":271,"_272":4673,"_141":4675},"cdb6a15348eb",[4674],"926e099","We found it was really helpful to have the engineering team tackle that all together and all at once, because otherwise it's like you're the one person dealing with support",{"_20":4677,"_90":271,"_272":4678,"_141":2462},"433d13f0a077",[],{"_20":4680,"_90":271,"_272":4681,"_141":4683},"4e11fe35454f",[4682],"175c47b","and you don't have people to ask like, oh, what is the status of that feature, or have you seen this bug before, and does this need to go in the right place?",[4685,4687],{"_20":4674,"_90":2478,"_2479":4686},"00:20:03.140",{"_20":4682,"_90":2478,"_2479":4688},"00:20:12.500",{"_20":4690,"_90":266,"_267":4691,"_275":4705,"_277":278},"1a8c1be28196",[4692,4697,4700],{"_20":4693,"_90":271,"_272":4694,"_141":4696},"8703800b3049",[4695],"eb1d19e","Obviously after a while the support no longer fit in the time box and it became kind of frustrating.",{"_20":4698,"_90":271,"_272":4699,"_141":2462},"3d58fc4454f2",[],{"_20":4701,"_90":271,"_272":4702,"_141":4704},"75688c4ff5e9",[4703],"3f1acc6","So we have also inserted a triage layer at this point.",[4706,4708],{"_20":4695,"_90":2478,"_2479":4707},"00:20:22.320",{"_20":4703,"_90":2478,"_2479":4709},"00:20:29.600",{"_20":4711,"_90":266,"_267":4712,"_275":4726,"_277":1728},"56d87c9b1b8a",[4713,4718,4721],{"_20":4714,"_90":271,"_272":4715,"_141":4717},"baa9a7e060c6",[4716],"de07b2f","I think it's really important that developers remember what it was like to do support and do it sometimes, but there's also something to be said for having heads down time to actually translate the",{"_20":4719,"_90":271,"_272":4720,"_141":2462},"14c2f326fb3b",[],{"_20":4722,"_90":271,"_272":4723,"_141":4725},"3795f904adf3",[4724],"1c67a5d","feedback that you get into actual product improvements.",[4727,4729],{"_20":4716,"_90":2478,"_2479":4728},"00:20:34.500",{"_20":4724,"_90":2478,"_2479":4730},"00:20:45.080",{"_20":4732,"_90":266,"_267":4733,"_275":4758,"_277":278},"b821dd945b73",[4734,4738,4742,4745,4750,4753],{"_20":4735,"_90":271,"_272":4736,"_141":2885},"6ad5d6b8e13f",[4737,1150],"97cfb8e",{"_20":4739,"_90":271,"_272":4740,"_141":4741},"ec9eb95aae23",[4737]," Yeah, plus one to the support stuff.",{"_20":4743,"_90":271,"_272":4744,"_141":2462},"a7023cf51283",[],{"_20":4746,"_90":271,"_272":4747,"_141":4749},"773184a1b476",[4748],"9b24dc5","It kills, we used to do the same thing.",{"_20":4751,"_90":271,"_272":4752,"_141":2462},"f0488f9688e0",[],{"_20":4754,"_90":271,"_272":4755,"_141":4757},"89a0fbcb3ff4",[4756],"b0640c3","It kills me now that we can't do that anymore due to some of Google's rigidity.",[4759,4761,4763],{"_20":4737,"_90":2478,"_2479":4760},"00:20:49.360",{"_20":4748,"_90":2478,"_2479":4762},"00:20:51.520",{"_20":4756,"_90":2478,"_2479":4764},"00:20:52.880",{"_20":4766,"_90":266,"_267":4767,"_275":4781,"_277":278},"6f6f3156ff4c",[4768,4773,4776],{"_20":4769,"_90":271,"_272":4770,"_141":4772},"5728542049a8",[4771],"c4e883d","One of the other things that we did along the theme of just staying close to developers was we did office hours.",{"_20":4774,"_90":271,"_272":4775,"_141":2462},"51d544d89475",[],{"_20":4777,"_90":271,"_272":4778,"_141":4780},"12933f445e5c",[4779],"7916870","And there's actually a funny story about how we got them started.",[4782,4784],{"_20":4771,"_90":2478,"_2479":4783},"00:20:58.560",{"_20":4779,"_90":2478,"_2479":4785},"00:21:04.000",{"_20":4787,"_90":266,"_267":4788,"_275":4802,"_277":278},"92ac70c08690",[4789,4794,4797],{"_20":4790,"_90":271,"_272":4791,"_141":4793},"703ec973fe4a",[4792],"1467c01","One of our, like employee number one, put up on our site like Firebase is having office hours Friday afternoon from one to four, come on by, and didn't tell anyone else.",{"_20":4795,"_90":271,"_272":4796,"_141":2462},"70d464f2300f",[],{"_20":4798,"_90":271,"_272":4799,"_141":4801},"1903df507011",[4800],"ebaad1d","So that next Friday like ten people just showed up.",[4803,4805],{"_20":4792,"_90":2478,"_2479":4804},"00:21:06.800",{"_20":4800,"_90":2478,"_2479":4806},"00:21:15.360",{"_20":4808,"_90":266,"_267":4809,"_275":4823,"_277":278},"31c3227839bb",[4810,4815,4818],{"_20":4811,"_90":271,"_272":4812,"_141":4814},"194dde466383",[4813],"65b602b","They were like, hi, we're here for the office hours.",{"_20":4816,"_90":271,"_272":4817,"_141":2462},"e0f3e9a36a28",[],{"_20":4819,"_90":271,"_272":4820,"_141":4822},"42a22aecf65d",[4821],"9de155b","I was like, what? So needless to say we kept that going for a while, until the volume became sort of unmanageable, and we learned a lot from it.",[4824,4826],{"_20":4813,"_90":2478,"_2479":4825},"00:21:17.760",{"_20":4821,"_90":2478,"_2479":4827},"00:21:19.919",{"_20":4829,"_90":266,"_267":4830,"_275":4855,"_277":278},"89cd59d292ea",[4831,4835,4839,4842,4847,4850],{"_20":4832,"_90":271,"_272":4833,"_141":2920},"7d127b820f22",[4834,1150],"1ff1d82",{"_20":4836,"_90":271,"_272":4837,"_141":4838},"14e87e515126",[4834]," Yeah, another thing that we did in the early days was the first app that launched in production on our platform, me and my co-founder gave them our personal phone numbers for any issues.",{"_20":4840,"_90":271,"_272":4841,"_141":2462},"34ba8f33cece",[],{"_20":4843,"_90":271,"_272":4844,"_141":4846},"fbfc725ebf6c",[4845],"3086523","I think they still have it, but they've stopped calling it.",{"_20":4848,"_90":271,"_272":4849,"_141":2462},"c179f14c2320",[],{"_20":4851,"_90":271,"_272":4852,"_141":4854},"aad6b6ce876a",[4853],"4218e62","They go through the normal support channels at this point.",[4856,4858,4860],{"_20":4834,"_90":2478,"_2479":4857},"00:21:30.820",{"_20":4845,"_90":2478,"_2479":4859},"00:21:41.919",{"_20":4853,"_90":2478,"_2479":4861},"00:21:44.880",{"_20":4863,"_90":266,"_267":4864,"_275":4878,"_277":278},"93fc21627482",[4865,4870,4873],{"_20":4866,"_90":271,"_272":4867,"_141":4869},"c846e4745ca5",[4868],"88902fd","But I think that was really helpful, because when you're launching an actual production application on a new platform, you're putting a lot of trust and",{"_20":4871,"_90":271,"_272":4872,"_141":2462},"2b7807de83ef",[],{"_20":4874,"_90":271,"_272":4875,"_141":4877},"d464b0719329",[4876],"564baaf","you rely on that platform to be up.",[4879,4881],{"_20":4868,"_90":2478,"_2479":4880},"00:21:47.280",{"_20":4876,"_90":2478,"_2479":4882},"00:21:57.780",{"_20":4884,"_90":266,"_267":4885,"_275":4907,"_277":278},"73496420b037",[4886,4891,4894,4899,4902],{"_20":4887,"_90":271,"_272":4888,"_141":4890},"90605c0838ec",[4889],"5d03bef","So knowing that you have a direct line to the folks that are really pushing that forward and can get you whatever help you need",{"_20":4892,"_90":271,"_272":4893,"_141":2462},"ee813e8cd338",[],{"_20":4895,"_90":271,"_272":4896,"_141":4898},"e5c281e17721",[4897],"43b3741","is really valuable for getting the first folks on board, and getting them comfortable with the fact that they're using something that's really cutting edge, but it's also unproven and it",{"_20":4900,"_90":271,"_272":4901,"_141":2462},"a421af729d7f",[],{"_20":4903,"_90":271,"_272":4904,"_141":4906},"440d83f8c8d0",[4905],"c4d486b","might not be as stable as something that's been around for a while.",[4908,4910,4912],{"_20":4889,"_90":2478,"_2479":4909},"00:22:00.260",{"_20":4897,"_90":2478,"_2479":4911},"00:22:08.100",{"_20":4905,"_90":2478,"_2479":4913},"00:22:17.399",{"_20":4915,"_90":266,"_267":4916,"_275":4921,"_277":368},"c468b14bf9de",[4917],{"_20":4918,"_90":271,"_272":4919,"_141":4920},"3d26551b8e57",[],"Bootstrapping a Community",[],{"_20":4923,"_90":266,"_267":4924,"_275":4949,"_277":278},"a2450ec277cc",[4925,4929,4933,4936,4941,4944],{"_20":4926,"_90":271,"_272":4927,"_141":2531},"d37d374e7817",[4928,1150],"cddf3f3",{"_20":4930,"_90":271,"_272":4931,"_141":4932},"41543fd6922c",[4928]," So speaking of community, how would you recommend bootstrapping a community?",{"_20":4934,"_90":271,"_272":4935,"_141":2462},"1bcaa15f37d2",[],{"_20":4937,"_90":271,"_272":4938,"_141":4940},"8e2046deb50e",[4939],"b24012f","Like James, for instance, I read this week in Hacker Noon that in the early days of Firebase you created this group, like twenty or thirty of the best hackers in San Francisco.",{"_20":4942,"_90":271,"_272":4943,"_141":2462},"9e2d3c73e893",[],{"_20":4945,"_90":271,"_272":4946,"_141":4948},"9daaa7016556",[4947],"29d68e2","Can you tell us more about what was the thinking process there?",[4950,4952,4954],{"_20":4928,"_90":2478,"_2479":4951},"00:22:21.480",{"_20":4939,"_90":2478,"_2479":4953},"00:22:25.380",{"_20":4947,"_90":2478,"_2479":4955},"00:22:34.020",{"_20":4957,"_90":266,"_267":4958,"_275":4975,"_277":278},"f8217631271b",[4959,4963,4967,4970],{"_20":4960,"_90":271,"_272":4961,"_141":2885},"57b8505b1778",[4962,1150],"b609085",{"_20":4964,"_90":271,"_272":4965,"_141":4966},"397acdd9dcb9",[4962]," Yeah, absolutely. I guess I would define community as like people who share a similar or common interest. In the case of this, people in",{"_20":4968,"_90":271,"_272":4969,"_141":2462},"5a636e52f500",[],{"_20":4971,"_90":271,"_272":4972,"_141":4974},"d6d5b8d8374c",[4973],"efe8b80","this room, it's around using your product or service.",[4976,4978],{"_20":4962,"_90":2478,"_2479":4977},"00:22:37.419",{"_20":4973,"_90":2478,"_2479":4979},"00:22:46.460",{"_20":4981,"_90":266,"_267":4982,"_275":4996,"_277":278},"ddc30574ad87",[4983,4988,4991],{"_20":4984,"_90":271,"_272":4985,"_141":4987},"5fe9b117e828",[4986],"3c3a153","They need to feel some level of ownership",{"_20":4989,"_90":271,"_272":4990,"_141":2462},"be82bd17be3e",[],{"_20":4992,"_90":271,"_272":4993,"_141":4995},"f4e265676e6f",[4994],"284119a","in the product. Typically, I think obviously they need to derive value from it, but they need to provide value back to that community.",[4997,4999],{"_20":4986,"_90":2478,"_2479":4998},"00:22:49.740",{"_20":4994,"_90":2478,"_2479":5000},"00:22:52.220",{"_20":5002,"_90":266,"_267":5003,"_275":5017,"_277":278},"5612ff62c478",[5004,5009,5012],{"_20":5005,"_90":271,"_272":5006,"_141":5008},"909564709af8",[5007],"f1b07cf","So I think the easiest way to bootstrap that is through personal relationships. And so we needed a critical mass of people, so I basically went and used my",{"_20":5010,"_90":271,"_272":5011,"_141":2462},"b3a69070315b",[],{"_20":5013,"_90":271,"_272":5014,"_141":5016},"9e3570f1e57b",[5015],"c2e9f3e","network of people in San Francisco and recruited people based on personal relationships, put them all in a Google group, and then made them feel like they were developing the product with us.",[5018,5020],{"_20":5007,"_90":2478,"_2479":5019},"00:23:00.060",{"_20":5015,"_90":2478,"_2479":5021},"00:23:09.580",{"_20":5023,"_90":266,"_267":5024,"_275":5046,"_277":278},"a7cedd6a7f5e",[5025,5030,5033,5038,5041],{"_20":5026,"_90":271,"_272":5027,"_141":5029},"776c4370a8a4",[5028],"a14b11a","So we would ask them product design questions, we would say, hey, what do you think of this?",{"_20":5031,"_90":271,"_272":5032,"_141":2462},"9246881fea63",[],{"_20":5034,"_90":271,"_272":5035,"_141":5037},"fa6985481d24",[5036],"00a746a","What do you think of this?",{"_20":5039,"_90":271,"_272":5040,"_141":2462},"39077bafe6ce",[],{"_20":5042,"_90":271,"_272":5043,"_141":5045},"a827fc80377d",[5044],"cc48000","We would send them swag, have them over for food, just have them not just have a pairwise relationship with me but also get to know each other.",[5047,5049,5051],{"_20":5028,"_90":2478,"_2479":5048},"00:23:20.560",{"_20":5036,"_90":2478,"_2479":5050},"00:23:23.920",{"_20":5044,"_90":2478,"_2479":5052},"00:23:24.720",{"_20":5054,"_90":266,"_267":5055,"_275":5077,"_277":1728},"37bf05163207",[5056,5061,5064,5069,5072],{"_20":5057,"_90":271,"_272":5058,"_141":5060},"a5aa54e03e8f",[5059],"9f49f5f","So that level of ownership and that level of relationship was kind of what bootstrapped the community.",{"_20":5062,"_90":271,"_272":5063,"_141":2462},"43907af8313f",[],{"_20":5065,"_90":271,"_272":5066,"_141":5068},"9546ed258cb5",[5067],"5a20f08","And then when it came time to promote us publicly, they",{"_20":5070,"_90":271,"_272":5071,"_141":2462},"893d9c79525c",[],{"_20":5073,"_90":271,"_272":5074,"_141":5076},"207e272b8f32",[5075],"1486210","were willing to go to bat for us, they were willing to write the comments on Hacker News or Reddit or Twitter or whatever it is, and that kind of got the ball rolling.",[5078,5080,5082],{"_20":5059,"_90":2478,"_2479":5079},"00:23:36.060",{"_20":5067,"_90":2478,"_2479":5081},"00:23:40.460",{"_20":5075,"_90":2478,"_2479":5083},"00:23:43.960",{"_20":5085,"_90":266,"_267":5086,"_275":5095,"_277":278},"f4724c889fa2",[5087,5091],{"_20":5088,"_90":271,"_272":5089,"_141":2531},"678117289909",[5090,1150],"2c83f21",{"_20":5092,"_90":271,"_272":5093,"_141":5094},"19fd50e512a2",[5090]," Kyle, I heard from Josh earlier that in the early days of Keen you even conducted like unhappy hour, to understand what was wrong about the product and how to make it better.",[5096],{"_20":5090,"_90":2478,"_2479":5097},"00:23:53.179",{"_20":5099,"_90":266,"_267":5100,"_275":5109,"_277":278},"db2648b29a84",[5101,5105],{"_20":5102,"_90":271,"_272":5103,"_141":3017},"446d804dd698",[5104,1150],"4675fcd",{"_20":5106,"_90":271,"_272":5107,"_141":5108},"4c1af315f9bb",[5104]," I think Josh was at one of those.",[5110],{"_20":5104,"_90":2478,"_2479":5111},"00:24:02.860",{"_20":5113,"_90":266,"_267":5114,"_275":5123,"_277":278},"b5ed04c92b48",[5115,5119],{"_20":5116,"_90":271,"_272":5117,"_141":2531},"436c19aeb2df",[5118,1150],"db897f0",{"_20":5120,"_90":271,"_272":5121,"_141":5122},"878c30a6acff",[5118]," Tell us more about how you conducted those.",[5124],{"_20":5118,"_90":2478,"_2479":5125},"00:24:04.419",{"_20":5127,"_90":266,"_267":5128,"_275":5153,"_277":278},"dc0ed511989f",[5129,5133,5137,5140,5145,5148],{"_20":5130,"_90":271,"_272":5131,"_141":3017},"9d6a91a13303",[5132,1150],"71d455e",{"_20":5134,"_90":271,"_272":5135,"_141":5136},"5d5ca13d54ac",[5132]," Yeah, so we had a little group. I mean my co-founders and I had been developers in the San Francisco for a few years and had our own network, so we brought some of those people in",{"_20":5138,"_90":271,"_272":5139,"_141":2462},"c7d37ae4937f",[],{"_20":5141,"_90":271,"_272":5142,"_141":5144},"915a9512c3a2",[5143],"3f160f4","before we released anything publicly besides like a blog, which was a great hack by the way, well before we had a product.",{"_20":5146,"_90":271,"_272":5147,"_141":2462},"1718d53b82ca",[],{"_20":5149,"_90":271,"_272":5150,"_141":5152},"5e50cd3d434f",[5151],"a83ba3d","It was just a blog. We were just writing stuff, Hacker News bait, and driving signups.",[5154,5156,5158],{"_20":5132,"_90":2478,"_2479":5155},"00:24:07.780",{"_20":5143,"_90":2478,"_2479":5157},"00:24:18.840",{"_20":5151,"_90":2478,"_2479":5159},"00:24:24.039",{"_20":5161,"_90":266,"_267":5162,"_275":5184,"_277":278},"250afb699520",[5163,5168,5171,5176,5179],{"_20":5164,"_90":271,"_272":5165,"_141":5167},"67f92c8dcd01",[5166],"6e32d3d","Which gave us a great test audience as we started scaling. But this in person test audience, were they called unhappy hour, I guess.",{"_20":5169,"_90":271,"_272":5170,"_141":2462},"9ce9ee6d43ab",[],{"_20":5172,"_90":271,"_272":5173,"_141":5175},"91ac45fcdb5f",[5174],"4a9be55","Yeah, that sounds about right. So we would bring them in and we'd be like, hey, we have this bizarro idea and it's a totally undocumented piece of crap, but here's the API spec, and here's, remember we",{"_20":5177,"_90":271,"_272":5178,"_141":2462},"0dc9b8673bc0",[],{"_20":5180,"_90":271,"_272":5181,"_141":5183},"d859d5b26857",[5182],"119cd2c","built a visual API navigator like Christine was talking about.",[5185,5187,5189],{"_20":5166,"_90":2478,"_2479":5186},"00:24:29.740",{"_20":5174,"_90":2478,"_2479":5188},"00:24:37.640",{"_20":5182,"_90":2478,"_2479":5190},"00:24:49.400",{"_20":5192,"_90":266,"_267":5193,"_275":5223,"_277":278},"886216e40070",[5194,5199,5202,5207,5210,5215,5218],{"_20":5195,"_90":271,"_272":5196,"_141":5198},"ed17b80323f1",[5197],"44099b6","The first one was really, really bad.",{"_20":5200,"_90":271,"_272":5201,"_141":2462},"03c42db52db6",[],{"_20":5203,"_90":271,"_272":5204,"_141":5206},"31ccdb9fcba5",[5205],"5a22cc3","But we showed it to them.",{"_20":5208,"_90":271,"_272":5209,"_141":2462},"67d16915a5cb",[],{"_20":5211,"_90":271,"_272":5212,"_141":5214},"fd5e140de374",[5213],"81fcd49","And yeah, just kinda watched them try to figure it out and got their feedback. And I think Josh went home and made a way better query builder and applied for a job with it, and we hired him, and was like",{"_20":5216,"_90":271,"_272":5217,"_141":2462},"4be08af5fe11",[],{"_20":5219,"_90":271,"_272":5220,"_141":5222},"77e6927579dd",[5221],"575ee7e","this is a way better way to kind of navigate the API.",[5224,5226,5228,5230],{"_20":5197,"_90":2478,"_2479":5225},"00:24:54.460",{"_20":5205,"_90":2478,"_2479":5227},"00:24:57.340",{"_20":5213,"_90":2478,"_2479":5229},"00:24:59.679",{"_20":5221,"_90":2478,"_2479":5231},"00:25:11.200",{"_20":5233,"_90":266,"_267":5234,"_275":5248,"_277":278},"047a6c9c830e",[5235,5240,5243],{"_20":5236,"_90":271,"_272":5237,"_141":5239},"18d8c58a3e4d",[5238],"ed60cd8","But two of the other people in that room became two of our first three paying customers.",{"_20":5241,"_90":271,"_272":5242,"_141":2462},"4796604e54f5",[],{"_20":5244,"_90":271,"_272":5245,"_141":5247},"6a0ef03e8d42",[5246],"6aeb3b3","So when we applied to Heavybit four years ago, we had some paying customers, but they were actually friends that had helped design the product.",[5249,5251],{"_20":5238,"_90":2478,"_2479":5250},"00:25:15.440",{"_20":5246,"_90":2478,"_2479":5252},"00:25:19.360",{"_20":5254,"_90":266,"_267":5255,"_275":5277,"_277":278},"ddc735f7cba9",[5256,5261,5264,5269,5272],{"_20":5257,"_90":271,"_272":5258,"_141":5260},"b4d2dd95609d",[5259],"c0a9996","And then same thing as James is talking about, that became our early kind of base. If we tweet something and it's gonna have three retweets, that's better than zero.",{"_20":5262,"_90":271,"_272":5263,"_141":2462},"bd0be9cd03c3",[],{"_20":5265,"_90":271,"_272":5266,"_141":5268},"4642e3fbd91b",[5267],"a80fa44","And yeah, we maybe socially hacked it, but community's a snowball, you have to start with something in the middle.",{"_20":5270,"_90":271,"_272":5271,"_141":2462},"4d89812ad42b",[],{"_20":5273,"_90":271,"_272":5274,"_141":5276},"257d50421eac",[5275],"e5949f5","So it was pretty awesome. I forgot all about that.",[5278,5280,5282],{"_20":5259,"_90":2478,"_2479":5279},"00:25:27.860",{"_20":5267,"_90":2478,"_2479":5281},"00:25:38.299",{"_20":5275,"_90":2478,"_2479":5283},"00:25:45.179",{"_20":5285,"_90":266,"_267":5286,"_275":5311,"_277":278},"a6444ee33eb0",[5287,5291,5295,5298,5303,5306],{"_20":5288,"_90":271,"_272":5289,"_141":2531},"0ee2fd3fe724",[5290,1150],"b3a8084",{"_20":5292,"_90":271,"_272":5293,"_141":5294},"0ed9ad0a03ed",[5290]," Relevant. And Christine, for you, what would you say, when you",{"_20":5296,"_90":271,"_272":5297,"_141":2462},"1dc2adf61a06",[],{"_20":5299,"_90":271,"_272":5300,"_141":5302},"03dbad00bc7f",[5301],"74cb550","start a developer community, what would you say would be ultimately the best activities you'd like those members to engage in?",{"_20":5304,"_90":271,"_272":5305,"_141":2462},"cf7396056eb5",[],{"_20":5307,"_90":271,"_272":5308,"_141":5310},"c02cca334697",[5309],"78208c8","How to foster a community, what kind of expectation would you have for them?",[5312,5314,5316],{"_20":5290,"_90":2478,"_2479":5313},"00:25:49.660",{"_20":5301,"_90":2478,"_2479":5315},"00:25:54.140",{"_20":5309,"_90":2478,"_2479":5317},"00:26:01.640",{"_20":5319,"_90":266,"_267":5320,"_275":5342,"_277":278},"dd20cfd138a3",[5321,5326,5329,5334,5337],{"_20":5322,"_90":271,"_272":5323,"_141":5325},"65109bad0e69",[5324],"00ae0e3","Would it be to contribute to open source?",{"_20":5327,"_90":271,"_272":5328,"_141":2462},"79e2b5227421",[],{"_20":5330,"_90":271,"_272":5331,"_141":5333},"8fdce1197c91",[5332],"63beb5e","Would it be to just spread the word, like organize meetups themselves?",{"_20":5335,"_90":271,"_272":5336,"_141":2462},"3b4a17ab8f61",[],{"_20":5338,"_90":271,"_272":5339,"_141":5341},"d271521cd7ae",[5340],"12999d7","What kind of activities do you think we'd love them to engage with.",[5343,5345,5347],{"_20":5324,"_90":2478,"_2479":5344},"00:26:06.040",{"_20":5332,"_90":2478,"_2479":5346},"00:26:09.240",{"_20":5340,"_90":2478,"_2479":5348},"00:26:12.520",{"_20":5350,"_90":266,"_267":5351,"_275":5368,"_277":278},"44468f7f1d5f",[5352,5356,5360,5363],{"_20":5353,"_90":271,"_272":5354,"_141":2920},"f402d9b56d12",[5355,1150],"f1d6dd4",{"_20":5357,"_90":271,"_272":5358,"_141":5359},"941927947c8b",[5355]," To me, the pinnacle of community involvement is folks that are building things on top of a platform.",{"_20":5361,"_90":271,"_272":5362,"_141":2462},"43a53cc79b20",[],{"_20":5364,"_90":271,"_272":5365,"_141":5367},"9ea691b24d10",[5366],"f9fd7c7","So whenever I see someone who's built a plug-in for a mail app I get so excited and I want to tell everyone about it.",[5369,5371],{"_20":5355,"_90":2478,"_2479":5370},"00:26:17.020",{"_20":5366,"_90":2478,"_2479":5372},"00:26:23.260",{"_20":5374,"_90":266,"_267":5375,"_275":5397,"_277":278},"b3b92ea1f054",[5376,5381,5384,5389,5392],{"_20":5377,"_90":271,"_272":5378,"_141":5380},"eafd1bff50ed",[5379],"223f7cc","Like someone built a plugin that allows you like quick unsubscribe from emails, and it'll show you in the thread lists.",{"_20":5382,"_90":271,"_272":5383,"_141":2462},"889c3887e9cf",[],{"_20":5385,"_90":271,"_272":5386,"_141":5388},"1f809bd4dcfb",[5387],"30f9d34","You can just unsubscribe from those lists you don't want to. Someone else built a thing that will tell you how long an email thread has been in your inbox",{"_20":5390,"_90":271,"_272":5391,"_141":2462},"0c84073a1ceb",[],{"_20":5393,"_90":271,"_272":5394,"_141":5396},"0960ddfa3b4b",[5395],"b787e20","so you can know how long you've been ignoring it.",[5398,5400,5402],{"_20":5379,"_90":2478,"_2479":5399},"00:26:29.540",{"_20":5387,"_90":2478,"_2479":5401},"00:26:36.580",{"_20":5395,"_90":2478,"_2479":5403},"00:26:47.180",{"_20":5405,"_90":266,"_267":5406,"_275":5420,"_277":1728},"a21cedcb7031",[5407,5412,5415],{"_20":5408,"_90":271,"_272":5409,"_141":5411},"5ae335e0bb48",[5410],"23ec256","So to me a sign of success is people building these little things and sharing them with other people.",{"_20":5413,"_90":271,"_272":5414,"_141":2462},"f1eef071dd0e",[],{"_20":5416,"_90":271,"_272":5417,"_141":5419},"197266a8f6c9",[5418],"eb8eea5","And that's kind of the best thing.",[5421,5423],{"_20":5410,"_90":2478,"_2479":5422},"00:26:49.500",{"_20":5418,"_90":2478,"_2479":5424},"00:26:57.260",{"_20":5426,"_90":266,"_267":5427,"_275":5432,"_277":368},"21f8783908a6",[5428],{"_20":5429,"_90":271,"_272":5430,"_141":5431},"125d7ccd5c26",[],"Leading Versus Letting Go",[],{"_20":5434,"_90":266,"_267":5435,"_275":5452,"_277":278},"152354a83484",[5436,5440,5444,5447],{"_20":5437,"_90":271,"_272":5438,"_141":2531},"59b653e76ea9",[5439,1150],"91002ad",{"_20":5441,"_90":271,"_272":5442,"_141":5443},"5799d4e40240",[5439]," And how much do you think you should, when you build a dev community, how much do you think you should lead the community and monitor it, versus let it happen organically and",{"_20":5445,"_90":271,"_272":5446,"_141":2462},"393b6c715410",[],{"_20":5448,"_90":271,"_272":5449,"_141":5451},"bbc29f272f44",[5450],"c91ec1a","give them the tools to actually organize, like advance, or spread the word themselves.",[5453,5455],{"_20":5439,"_90":2478,"_2479":5454},"00:27:00.500",{"_20":5450,"_90":2478,"_2479":5456},"00:27:11.539",{"_20":5458,"_90":266,"_267":5459,"_275":5473,"_277":278},"519b8a316c97",[5460,5465,5468],{"_20":5461,"_90":271,"_272":5462,"_141":5464},"749477ba08ea",[5463],"9511394","How do you find the right balance between leading the community or letting it organize itself organically?",{"_20":5466,"_90":271,"_272":5467,"_141":2462},"270f4c2f1f18",[],{"_20":5469,"_90":271,"_272":5470,"_141":5472},"076cb1104680",[5471],"ba9c2ac","Because I guess it's a pretty hard thing to do when you just get started, or even down the road when you become bigger.",[5474,5476],{"_20":5463,"_90":2478,"_2479":5475},"00:27:15.539",{"_20":5471,"_90":2478,"_2479":5477},"00:27:21.679",{"_20":5479,"_90":266,"_267":5480,"_275":5497,"_277":278},"a006069d4cab",[5481,5485,5489,5492],{"_20":5482,"_90":271,"_272":5483,"_141":3017},"ebd6c7a3f304",[5484,1150],"e713316",{"_20":5486,"_90":271,"_272":5487,"_141":5488},"86ef27aca850",[5484]," Yeah, I mean we've gone all back and forth and back again on that spectrum over the years.",{"_20":5490,"_90":271,"_272":5491,"_141":2462},"5f5f754363de",[],{"_20":5493,"_90":271,"_272":5494,"_141":5496},"1c9748b1633f",[5495],"b1a5830","One of the key inputs is how much does it cost you cash wise, and how much cash do you have and want to invest?",[5498,5500],{"_20":5484,"_90":2478,"_2479":5499},"00:27:26.639",{"_20":5495,"_90":2478,"_2479":5501},"00:27:31.740",{"_20":5503,"_90":266,"_267":5504,"_275":5526,"_277":278},"d84ea2176d27",[5505,5510,5513,5518,5521],{"_20":5506,"_90":271,"_272":5507,"_141":5509},"93f02507600c",[5508],"b3dad0a","So one of the things we found was, we could get people, we could travel and we could go generate events and try to growth",{"_20":5511,"_90":271,"_272":5512,"_141":2462},"ce47a797860f",[],{"_20":5514,"_90":271,"_272":5515,"_141":5517},"81a005758ef2",[5516],"748816c","hack them, and take our developer customer base and ask them, hey, you're a developer customer in this city, do you have friends you can bring to this event.",{"_20":5519,"_90":271,"_272":5520,"_141":2462},"8c68d61aa271",[],{"_20":5522,"_90":271,"_272":5523,"_141":5525},"edcb9af02cc2",[5524],"ac0ace1","We've done that, and we used to do that a lot more.",[5527,5529,5531],{"_20":5508,"_90":2478,"_2479":5528},"00:27:37.020",{"_20":5516,"_90":2478,"_2479":5530},"00:27:44.940",{"_20":5524,"_90":2478,"_2479":5532},"00:27:51.900",{"_20":5534,"_90":266,"_267":5535,"_275":5549,"_277":278},"8b07eb40a44b",[5536,5541,5544],{"_20":5537,"_90":271,"_272":5538,"_141":5540},"dd2d32ec8ecb",[5539],"97d701c","What we found, we found two things that are a lot cheaper and a lot more scalable since then.",{"_20":5542,"_90":271,"_272":5543,"_141":2462},"5ef8bdcbb4b7",[],{"_20":5545,"_90":271,"_272":5546,"_141":5548},"0fb96852f8f9",[5547],"255448a","One is finding other people who already have events and kind of leeching onto, like a satellite circling Jupiter sort of thing.",[5550,5552],{"_20":5539,"_90":2478,"_2479":5551},"00:27:54.620",{"_20":5547,"_90":2478,"_2479":5553},"00:27:59.900",{"_20":5555,"_90":266,"_267":5556,"_275":5570,"_277":278},"2f7b3df01848",[5557,5562,5565],{"_20":5558,"_90":271,"_272":5559,"_141":5561},"8769595bc264",[5560],"b4366e6","Like we sent somebody to London that he found in like two days that somebody else had this",{"_20":5563,"_90":271,"_272":5564,"_141":2462},"5976b1d68b51",[],{"_20":5566,"_90":271,"_272":5567,"_141":5569},"feeef5edf01f",[5568],"dc31ef4","really big developer event, and they were always trying to figure out how to fund it, and we just ended up buying pizza or something and it was incredibly cheap, and we ended up with like 200 developers and we were the special guests from Silicon Valley co-hosting the event.",[5571,5573],{"_20":5560,"_90":2478,"_2479":5572},"00:28:08.500",{"_20":5568,"_90":2478,"_2479":5574},"00:28:12.740",{"_20":5576,"_90":266,"_267":5577,"_275":5599,"_277":278},"1f6d3948b8cd",[5578,5583,5586,5591,5594],{"_20":5579,"_90":271,"_272":5580,"_141":5582},"f4bb5a15a64a",[5581],"c786179","So if you can bring kind of a freshness to a geography and somebody else has the community organizing but they're looking for the freshness, that's a really good synergy that's pretty cheap.",{"_20":5584,"_90":271,"_272":5585,"_141":2462},"45a027a29ebf",[],{"_20":5587,"_90":271,"_272":5588,"_141":5590},"af13efadb68a",[5589],"0f289dc","So we started doing that a lot more, and then we took a kind of a page from Stripe's playbook, which is a lot more online community and a lot more, I guess, inexpensive.",{"_20":5592,"_90":271,"_272":5593,"_141":2462},"9e9c4f5fec75",[],{"_20":5595,"_90":271,"_272":5596,"_141":5598},"66373ed84045",[5597],"0c7d9f3","Because we used to spend a lot of money traveling around.",[5600,5602,5604],{"_20":5581,"_90":2478,"_2479":5601},"00:28:23.460",{"_20":5589,"_90":2478,"_2479":5603},"00:28:33.660",{"_20":5597,"_90":2478,"_2479":5605},"00:28:41.900",{"_20":5607,"_90":266,"_267":5608,"_275":5630,"_277":278},"ff7c3fd10490",[5609,5614,5617,5622,5625],{"_20":5610,"_90":271,"_272":5611,"_141":5613},"b39adde8d053",[5612],"3617e62","And for what we do, anyone doing APIs that are gonna integrate into a product and maybe even be the foundation of the product or part of it, it's kinda hard to, if you get,",{"_20":5615,"_90":271,"_272":5616,"_141":2462},"74417b591afe",[],{"_20":5618,"_90":271,"_272":5619,"_141":5621},"257b1d9e837f",[5620],"e8de426","you can get fifty people really excited about the API and it'll take three years to find out if any of them use it, or how many of them.",{"_20":5623,"_90":271,"_272":5624,"_141":2462},"09aa19ae4e4f",[],{"_20":5626,"_90":271,"_272":5627,"_141":5629},"f9fd3e7b6ce6",[5628],"7a5c733","Turns out in hindsight those are all really good investments, but it's hard to prove in the meantime.",[5631,5633,5635],{"_20":5612,"_90":2478,"_2479":5632},"00:28:44.460",{"_20":5620,"_90":2478,"_2479":5634},"00:28:54.340",{"_20":5628,"_90":2478,"_2479":5636},"00:29:01.000",{"_20":5638,"_90":266,"_267":5639,"_275":5669,"_277":278},"5ddac38b9341",[5640,5645,5648,5653,5656,5661,5664],{"_20":5641,"_90":271,"_272":5642,"_141":5644},"feceec36f7da",[5643],"67bfff9","So we found a lot cheaper things and quicker hitting things.",{"_20":5646,"_90":271,"_272":5647,"_141":2462},"bb2a08aa8e30",[],{"_20":5649,"_90":271,"_272":5650,"_141":5652},"9ae6a7462da1",[5651],"78cf597","Like going to a Drupal meetup and showing off our Drupal plugin is a really great way to get free access, and it's very actionable. Drop this thing into your environment and see what happens, as opposed to here's a vision for our API.",{"_20":5654,"_90":271,"_272":5655,"_141":2462},"b04d264cea5a",[],{"_20":5657,"_90":271,"_272":5658,"_141":5660},"2251858c20a0",[5659],"41d7af7","Think about what you might build with it for the next three years.",{"_20":5662,"_90":271,"_272":5663,"_141":2462},"813ff7808e96",[],{"_20":5665,"_90":271,"_272":5666,"_141":5668},"bcb50188b5b8",[5667],"a726615","So we've switched to more of that.",[5670,5672,5674,5676],{"_20":5643,"_90":2478,"_2479":5671},"00:29:05.080",{"_20":5651,"_90":2478,"_2479":5673},"00:29:07.720",{"_20":5659,"_90":2478,"_2479":5675},"00:29:19.159",{"_20":5667,"_90":2478,"_2479":5677},"00:29:21.240",{"_20":5679,"_90":266,"_267":5680,"_275":5697,"_277":278},"3b6ec7ce44f8",[5681,5685,5689,5692],{"_20":5682,"_90":271,"_272":5683,"_141":2531},"bd5f5ca1b03f",[5684,1150],"7f29982",{"_20":5686,"_90":271,"_272":5687,"_141":5688},"8c13a587c5d0",[5684]," What about you James, on the Firebase side, when it comes to leading the community or engaging into it?",{"_20":5690,"_90":271,"_272":5691,"_141":2462},"fa42185f6c1d",[],{"_20":5693,"_90":271,"_272":5694,"_141":5696},"5fc38165033e",[5695],"3a3c145","I also know that you were doing a lot of hackathons, right, in the early days.",[5698,5700],{"_20":5684,"_90":2478,"_2479":5699},"00:29:24.080",{"_20":5695,"_90":2478,"_2479":5701},"00:29:31.039",{"_20":5703,"_90":266,"_267":5704,"_275":5726,"_277":278},"9e58d50073aa",[5705,5710,5713,5718,5721],{"_20":5706,"_90":271,"_272":5707,"_141":5709},"2806a583d2b0",[5708],"3a2790f","I remember I think seeing like a drawing real-time app that you would show to people in hackathon.",{"_20":5711,"_90":271,"_272":5712,"_141":2462},"865a245885c5",[],{"_20":5714,"_90":271,"_272":5715,"_141":5717},"29f9eae3102e",[5716],"b6735fd","How did that work out for you guys?",{"_20":5719,"_90":271,"_272":5720,"_141":2462},"7fa75f9729f5",[],{"_20":5722,"_90":271,"_272":5723,"_141":5725},"2909d85cee44",[5724],"6bd718e","All around hackathon and events, and how did you change tactics maybe over the years?",[5727,5729,5731],{"_20":5708,"_90":2478,"_2479":5728},"00:29:34.980",{"_20":5716,"_90":2478,"_2479":5730},"00:29:40.660",{"_20":5724,"_90":2478,"_2479":5732},"00:29:43.780",{"_20":5734,"_90":266,"_267":5735,"_275":5752,"_277":278},"2a40c5951a35",[5736,5740,5744,5747],{"_20":5737,"_90":271,"_272":5738,"_141":2885},"403e22b2b6eb",[5739,1150],"dc8d58a",{"_20":5741,"_90":271,"_272":5742,"_141":5743},"cfe02125c71d",[5739]," We had the online bent and we led it, and I think we lead it almost still to this day.",{"_20":5745,"_90":271,"_272":5746,"_141":2462},"ae49c4ad7fc7",[],{"_20":5748,"_90":271,"_272":5749,"_141":5751},"1f6cce74971a",[5750],"f1d47c7","Offline is really hard, especially since we're like a for-profit, like paid product.",[5753,5755],{"_20":5739,"_90":2478,"_2479":5754},"00:29:48.720",{"_20":5750,"_90":2478,"_2479":5756},"00:29:54.540",{"_20":5758,"_90":266,"_267":5759,"_275":5773,"_277":278},"e58a5c2e8cd7",[5760,5765,5768],{"_20":5761,"_90":271,"_272":5762,"_141":5764},"252d47fdacf1",[5763],"c74f35a","Like if you're Angular or, pick your open source framework, you will get people springing up, because there's this sense of, people",{"_20":5766,"_90":271,"_272":5767,"_141":2462},"65f31387099e",[],{"_20":5769,"_90":271,"_272":5770,"_141":5772},"47a11bbfe82e",[5771],"faf7c29","are willing to invest because it's not like profiting a corporation directly.",[5774,5776],{"_20":5763,"_90":2478,"_2479":5775},"00:30:01.100",{"_20":5771,"_90":2478,"_2479":5777},"00:30:11.640",{"_20":5779,"_90":266,"_267":5780,"_275":5794,"_277":278},"00eac7768f0a",[5781,5786,5789],{"_20":5782,"_90":271,"_272":5783,"_141":5785},"f67a431027ef",[5784],"0d2b0c3","So we went the route, Angular was our most successful set of people we'd co-present with, and we'd go to meetups around the world and be their special guests.",{"_20":5787,"_90":271,"_272":5788,"_141":2462},"d85269cf0742",[],{"_20":5790,"_90":271,"_272":5791,"_141":5793},"22ff3d8bb26d",[5792],"3154313","So that worked out really, really well.",[5795,5797],{"_20":5784,"_90":2478,"_2479":5796},"00:30:15.960",{"_20":5792,"_90":2478,"_2479":5798},"00:30:26.660",{"_20":5800,"_90":266,"_267":5801,"_275":5823,"_277":278},"cb8ad1c652af",[5802,5807,5810,5815,5818],{"_20":5803,"_90":271,"_272":5804,"_141":5806},"05f6c36ce109",[5805],"c4d37b0","In terms of online,",{"_20":5808,"_90":271,"_272":5809,"_141":2462},"384fd57713ad",[],{"_20":5811,"_90":271,"_272":5812,"_141":5814},"13819c37040a",[5813],"19b3922","basically we moderate heavily our Google group, and we encourage people to post things that they've built, and that generates conversations.",{"_20":5816,"_90":271,"_272":5817,"_141":2462},"20f57a37795a",[],{"_20":5819,"_90":271,"_272":5820,"_141":5822},"0c70025a2d37",[5821],"fe309d1","Slack is sort of like the only channel that we sort of let the community lead to this day.",[5824,5826,5828],{"_20":5805,"_90":2478,"_2479":5825},"00:30:28.340",{"_20":5813,"_90":2478,"_2479":5827},"00:30:30.540",{"_20":5821,"_90":2478,"_2479":5829},"00:30:40.519",{"_20":5831,"_90":266,"_267":5832,"_275":5854,"_277":278},"ee3508a5c1a8",[5833,5838,5841,5846,5849],{"_20":5834,"_90":271,"_272":5835,"_141":5837},"4ab67af1774e",[5836],"761e289","In terms of hackathons, this worked out really well.",{"_20":5839,"_90":271,"_272":5840,"_141":2462},"3b9f934d092a",[],{"_20":5842,"_90":271,"_272":5843,"_141":5845},"dbd3e3584e34",[5844],"6cd25b5","We'd basically pick the biggest hackathons that were going on.",{"_20":5847,"_90":271,"_272":5848,"_141":2462},"d506602b19a9",[],{"_20":5850,"_90":271,"_272":5851,"_141":5853},"83dd940b62e3",[5852],"efacab5","We'd attend very few of them, maybe like one a month, but we'd send like the whole team and we'd wear our blaze yellow shirts.",[5855,5857,5859],{"_20":5836,"_90":2478,"_2479":5856},"00:30:45.960",{"_20":5844,"_90":2478,"_2479":5858},"00:30:50.740",{"_20":5852,"_90":2478,"_2479":5860},"00:30:53.380",{"_20":5862,"_90":266,"_267":5863,"_275":5885,"_277":278},"fec298d00e84",[5864,5869,5872,5877,5880],{"_20":5865,"_90":271,"_272":5866,"_141":5868},"2b2f4a0b401a",[5867],"3fcfc46","I think I met Kyle at a hackathon.",{"_20":5870,"_90":271,"_272":5871,"_141":2462},"3a015f41cf43",[],{"_20":5873,"_90":271,"_272":5874,"_141":5876},"ac5823006bd5",[5875],"4f070de","You were wearing one of those.",{"_20":5878,"_90":271,"_272":5879,"_141":2462},"f711fee5854e",[],{"_20":5881,"_90":271,"_272":5882,"_141":5884},"14eedc4bfb3d",[5883],"9fc88f7","T-shirt, company's t-shirts multiple days in a row.",[5886,5888,5890],{"_20":5867,"_90":2478,"_2479":5887},"00:30:59.519",{"_20":5875,"_90":2478,"_2479":5889},"00:31:02.720",{"_20":5883,"_90":2478,"_2479":5891},"00:31:09.980",{"_20":5893,"_90":266,"_267":5894,"_275":5903,"_277":278},"f246037406dd",[5895,5899],{"_20":5896,"_90":271,"_272":5897,"_141":3017},"fe93c21765a9",[5898,1150],"0329331",{"_20":5900,"_90":271,"_272":5901,"_141":5902},"9472b775ff8d",[5898]," What's the undershirt for?",[5904],{"_20":5898,"_90":2478,"_2479":5905},"00:31:13.660",{"_20":5907,"_90":266,"_267":5908,"_275":5933,"_277":278},"c2a303169be8",[5909,5913,5917,5920,5925,5928],{"_20":5910,"_90":271,"_272":5911,"_141":2885},"b602e1cc5939",[5912,1150],"ca4950d",{"_20":5914,"_90":271,"_272":5915,"_141":5916},"bb034a8db5e2",[5912]," So this worked immensely well,",{"_20":5918,"_90":271,"_272":5919,"_141":2462},"c5133d08c64e",[],{"_20":5921,"_90":271,"_272":5922,"_141":5924},"b5b2081d9479",[5923],"0e21ab3","just for building that reputation in the community.",{"_20":5926,"_90":271,"_272":5927,"_141":2462},"5f1c84e75968",[],{"_20":5929,"_90":271,"_272":5930,"_141":5932},"6de2493cbc8a",[5931],"9a002c9","Again, developer communities are very small.",[5934,5936,5938],{"_20":5912,"_90":2478,"_2479":5935},"00:31:19.580",{"_20":5923,"_90":2478,"_2479":5937},"00:31:22.060",{"_20":5931,"_90":2478,"_2479":5939},"00:31:24.940",{"_20":5941,"_90":266,"_267":5942,"_275":5956,"_277":278},"13e0055593b1",[5943,5948,5951],{"_20":5944,"_90":271,"_272":5945,"_141":5947},"6d0258167bc4",[5946],"c1961b8","If you can make some noise at a four or five hundred person event and be like, oh, those Firebase guys, like I saw them.",{"_20":5949,"_90":271,"_272":5950,"_141":2462},"eb06912aedec",[],{"_20":5952,"_90":271,"_272":5953,"_141":5955},"4a9de5fe8e6c",[5954],"00bc630","Let me go check out their product.",[5957,5959],{"_20":5946,"_90":2478,"_2479":5958},"00:31:26.700",{"_20":5954,"_90":2478,"_2479":5960},"00:31:36.220",{"_20":5962,"_90":266,"_267":5963,"_275":5977,"_277":1728},"034b0c34cf94",[5964,5969,5972],{"_20":5965,"_90":271,"_272":5966,"_141":5968},"e7dbf80441df",[5967],"58db532","Even if you are using Keen or Parse or whoever, we would go and help you.",{"_20":5970,"_90":271,"_272":5971,"_141":2462},"323b8af5817b",[],{"_20":5973,"_90":271,"_272":5974,"_141":5976},"de8786d3dad6",[5975],"18639a7","Even with our competitors' products, because you would walk away with goodwill towards our team and you'd be more likely to check us out.",[5978,5980],{"_20":5967,"_90":2478,"_2479":5979},"00:31:38.460",{"_20":5975,"_90":2478,"_2479":5981},"00:31:46.320",{"_20":5983,"_90":266,"_267":5984,"_275":5990,"_277":278},"99ddabb78b29",[5985],{"_20":5986,"_90":271,"_272":5987,"_141":5989},"50ebad2f03a9",[5988],"ac186e3","Again, hard to prove the ROI, but turns out that if you're doing that in the Bay Area, with again there's this critical mass of developers, I wouldn't do anything differently.",[5991],{"_20":5988,"_90":2478,"_2479":5992},"00:31:53.200",{"_20":5994,"_90":266,"_267":5995,"_275":6020,"_277":278},"4cb311948b10",[5996,6000,6004,6007,6012,6015],{"_20":5997,"_90":271,"_272":5998,"_141":2531},"db68e350fb0a",[5999,1150],"9e2218c",{"_20":6001,"_90":271,"_272":6002,"_141":6003},"dae34700e821",[5999]," Great.",{"_20":6005,"_90":271,"_272":6006,"_141":2462},"85d3f2679571",[],{"_20":6008,"_90":271,"_272":6009,"_141":6011},"46e06e5340d5",[6010],"252374d","And what about you, Christine, when it comes to, like you mentioned, the plug-in and how you get excited at times when you see specific integrations being built.",{"_20":6013,"_90":271,"_272":6014,"_141":2462},"17060f79e792",[],{"_20":6016,"_90":271,"_272":6017,"_141":6019},"aab40420eebe",[6018],"b5a5a48","How do you think about leading the community in one direction, versus letting it organize and come up with creative ideas that you maybe did not think of in the first place?",[6021,6023,6025],{"_20":5999,"_90":2478,"_2479":6022},"00:32:03.539",{"_20":6010,"_90":2478,"_2479":6024},"00:32:04.419",{"_20":6018,"_90":2478,"_2479":6026},"00:32:12.400",{"_20":6028,"_90":266,"_267":6029,"_275":6054,"_277":278},"e850056ee820",[6030,6034,6038,6041,6046,6049],{"_20":6031,"_90":271,"_272":6032,"_141":2920},"b20de866ae0a",[6033,1150],"75dd05c",{"_20":6035,"_90":271,"_272":6036,"_141":6037},"45bde1f10fe4",[6033]," I think for any kind of new platform in the early days, you almost have to show some leadership as the people producing that thing.",{"_20":6039,"_90":271,"_272":6040,"_141":2462},"d20b80468b4a",[],{"_20":6042,"_90":271,"_272":6043,"_141":6045},"a04765ddfe13",[6044],"d77d2b1","And expecting people to just kind of discover it and figure out how to use it and build interesting things on it is kind of",{"_20":6047,"_90":271,"_272":6048,"_141":2462},"3917e2f693af",[],{"_20":6050,"_90":271,"_272":6051,"_141":6053},"b75943b15077",[6052],"5482ef4","expecting to get a free lunch, like oh I built this thing, they will come, right?",[6055,6057,6059],{"_20":6033,"_90":2478,"_2479":6056},"00:32:22.340",{"_20":6044,"_90":2478,"_2479":6058},"00:32:32.059",{"_20":6052,"_90":2478,"_2479":6060},"00:32:40.760",{"_20":6062,"_90":266,"_267":6063,"_275":6085,"_277":278},"bd183d524ac1",[6064,6069,6072,6077,6080],{"_20":6065,"_90":271,"_272":6066,"_141":6068},"e1927bbafb2a",[6067],"df8577b","Turns out it doesn't actually work that way.",{"_20":6070,"_90":271,"_272":6071,"_141":2462},"6b901b5fe343",[],{"_20":6073,"_90":271,"_272":6074,"_141":6076},"7ef5ce223b44",[6075],"fcd3153","So kind of like the approach that we've been taking is to build things that show people what's possible.",{"_20":6078,"_90":271,"_272":6079,"_141":2462},"1478ee15bb27",[],{"_20":6081,"_90":271,"_272":6082,"_141":6084},"803482d19b33",[6083],"a9326b0","As an example, it was really useful for us to build an actual mail application on top of the same data API that we are selling to businesses that are building apps.",[6086,6088,6090],{"_20":6067,"_90":2478,"_2479":6087},"00:32:45.000",{"_20":6075,"_90":2478,"_2479":6089},"00:32:47.399",{"_20":6083,"_90":2478,"_2479":6091},"00:32:54.100",{"_20":6093,"_90":266,"_267":6094,"_275":6116,"_277":278},"7dcf98facb67",[6095,6100,6103,6108,6111],{"_20":6096,"_90":271,"_272":6097,"_141":6099},"e32540665e99",[6098],"cd31c1d","Because it showed that it was really useful for developers to connect an account to the mail app and kind of see the email syncing, and see what API requests that was making.",{"_20":6101,"_90":271,"_272":6102,"_141":2462},"ab421bae9ae7",[],{"_20":6104,"_90":271,"_272":6105,"_141":6107},"712047c4c623",[6106],"5374581","And then when we started pushing that mail app as the second piece of our platform, you can also build plugins that integrate into the mail app.",{"_20":6109,"_90":271,"_272":6110,"_141":2462},"5bed18792c28",[],{"_20":6112,"_90":271,"_272":6113,"_141":6115},"6965e5d55cf2",[6114],"fe53fe3","We built the first set of plugins ourselves, and it's like, here's the kind of thing that you can build.",[6117,6119,6121],{"_20":6098,"_90":2478,"_2479":6118},"00:33:05.460",{"_20":6106,"_90":2478,"_2479":6120},"00:33:16.660",{"_20":6114,"_90":2478,"_2479":6122},"00:33:25.040",{"_20":6124,"_90":266,"_267":6125,"_275":6147,"_277":1728},"141c97c173a8",[6126,6131,6134,6139,6142],{"_20":6127,"_90":271,"_272":6128,"_141":6130},"aaddb5a77c8c",[6129],"a9f7abf","A set of documentation is one thing, and a set of documentation and some actual examples of a useful thing that you can make is much more compelling.",{"_20":6132,"_90":271,"_272":6133,"_141":2462},"7ead15a28771",[],{"_20":6135,"_90":271,"_272":6136,"_141":6138},"c7729ab29dc4",[6137],"e735a4e","I think it's important to show folks some idea of what's possible",{"_20":6140,"_90":271,"_272":6141,"_141":2462},"fff81e2ad2e7",[],{"_20":6143,"_90":271,"_272":6144,"_141":6146},"7f6693999949",[6145],"220eef4","and not expect to get a ton of people making free contributions and building interesting things without a lot of input.",[6148,6150,6152],{"_20":6129,"_90":2478,"_2479":6149},"00:33:30.160",{"_20":6137,"_90":2478,"_2479":6151},"00:33:40.140",{"_20":6145,"_90":2478,"_2479":6153},"00:33:44.780",{"_20":6155,"_90":266,"_267":6156,"_275":6170,"_277":278},"ead2e0d8fe05",[6157,6162,6165],{"_20":6158,"_90":271,"_272":6159,"_141":6161},"21f0ca08bd9f",[6160],"724d2b9","Once you kind of get the ball rolling, it's kind of a different story in terms of how hands-on or hands-off you are.",{"_20":6163,"_90":271,"_272":6164,"_141":2462},"46b4d7348c6f",[],{"_20":6166,"_90":271,"_272":6167,"_141":6169},"436bd2df8e87",[6168],"096a135","But I think at the beginning you kind of have to be really, really hands-on.",[6171,6173],{"_20":6160,"_90":2478,"_2479":6172},"00:33:52.060",{"_20":6168,"_90":2478,"_2479":6174},"00:33:58.380",{"_20":6176,"_90":266,"_267":6177,"_275":6202,"_277":278},"4345758866b7",[6178,6182,6186,6189,6194,6197],{"_20":6179,"_90":271,"_272":6180,"_141":2531},"1cc5a7086c50",[6181,1150],"3cc0a41",{"_20":6183,"_90":271,"_272":6184,"_141":6185},"06b3b81906a2",[6181]," Did anything surprise you around the community of developers as time went on and on for your products?",{"_20":6187,"_90":271,"_272":6188,"_141":2462},"8f5054537d5c",[],{"_20":6190,"_90":271,"_272":6191,"_141":6193},"9fee208374d5",[6192],"f192d9b","Did anything come off as a surprise in the Firebase or Keen history,",{"_20":6195,"_90":271,"_272":6196,"_141":2462},"46bb65f49832",[],{"_20":6198,"_90":271,"_272":6199,"_141":6201},"27f2b4710575",[6200],"91189dc","things you did not expect to be built, or things you did not expect to happen and just happened organically thanks to the community?",[6203,6205,6207],{"_20":6181,"_90":2478,"_2479":6204},"00:34:02.419",{"_20":6192,"_90":2478,"_2479":6206},"00:34:08.899",{"_20":6200,"_90":2478,"_2479":6208},"00:34:13.639",{"_20":6210,"_90":266,"_267":6211,"_275":6228,"_277":278},"9e9dfe7a2216",[6212,6216,6220,6223],{"_20":6213,"_90":271,"_272":6214,"_141":2885},"18bb31e0c262",[6215,1150],"a38b81a",{"_20":6217,"_90":271,"_272":6218,"_141":6219},"5efcc085902a",[6215]," I mean, I'm continually surprised at what people build with our stuff.",{"_20":6221,"_90":271,"_272":6222,"_141":2462},"80e9dcc2af8c",[],{"_20":6224,"_90":271,"_272":6225,"_141":6227},"8652d6342f79",[6226],"d1eaa5e","There was, I think one of the first use cases that just blew me away was some professor at UT Austin was using us to monitor the health of their supercomputer cores.",[6229,6231],{"_20":6215,"_90":2478,"_2479":6230},"00:34:22.160",{"_20":6226,"_90":2478,"_2479":6232},"00:34:27.520",{"_20":6234,"_90":266,"_267":6235,"_275":6257,"_277":278},"0e0387167695",[6236,6241,6244,6249,6252],{"_20":6237,"_90":271,"_272":6238,"_141":6240},"80e5f74172aa",[6239],"fbb3f36","And this was like two months after we launched, and I was like, do you know what state our infrastructure is in?",{"_20":6242,"_90":271,"_272":6243,"_141":2462},"b7fdab55c8e7",[],{"_20":6245,"_90":271,"_272":6246,"_141":6248},"f276f845a38e",[6247],"c73635b","What are you doing? This was like private beta, and we had just started batch inviting people.",{"_20":6250,"_90":271,"_272":6251,"_141":2462},"fa5cb5444257",[],{"_20":6253,"_90":271,"_272":6254,"_141":6256},"a356dacdac76",[6255],"cd2cb72","Like the mayor of Taiwan used us to get re-elected in our first year, and we didn't have a security system yet.",[6258,6260,6262],{"_20":6239,"_90":2478,"_2479":6259},"00:34:38.520",{"_20":6247,"_90":2478,"_2479":6261},"00:34:44.460",{"_20":6255,"_90":2478,"_2479":6263},"00:34:52.559",{"_20":6265,"_90":266,"_267":6266,"_275":6288,"_277":1728},"b05e3ad7d345",[6267,6272,6275,6280,6283],{"_20":6268,"_90":271,"_272":6269,"_141":6271},"b1250f63d720",[6270],"79108da","Yeah. That's the best part of my job, and the most fulfilling and rewarding, is we as makers of developer tools give people a bunch of Legos",{"_20":6273,"_90":271,"_272":6274,"_141":2462},"ef5e17ccfc55",[],{"_20":6276,"_90":271,"_272":6277,"_141":6279},"731b4e89923a",[6278],"da3ce2e","and you have no idea what they're gonna build.",{"_20":6281,"_90":271,"_272":6282,"_141":2462},"ccc41e131d6b",[],{"_20":6284,"_90":271,"_272":6285,"_141":6287},"75388f269bbb",[6286],"0ee2d98","It's really cool and it's so unique.",[6289,6291,6293],{"_20":6270,"_90":2478,"_2479":6290},"00:35:01.280",{"_20":6278,"_90":2478,"_2479":6292},"00:35:13.280",{"_20":6286,"_90":2478,"_2479":6294},"00:35:15.800",{"_20":6296,"_90":266,"_267":6297,"_275":6330,"_277":278},"e4b0633fc1b2",[6298,6302,6306,6309,6314,6317,6322,6325],{"_20":6299,"_90":271,"_272":6300,"_141":2920},"43cd1449a13e",[6301,1150],"ade6ed3",{"_20":6303,"_90":271,"_272":6304,"_141":6305},"a5a86754ce1a",[6301]," My favorite thing is while we were focused on building kind of like enterprise email features,",{"_20":6307,"_90":271,"_272":6308,"_141":2462},"b8ba92fff3e7",[],{"_20":6310,"_90":271,"_272":6311,"_141":6313},"947c603f7455",[6312],"2dcce2d","some guy in an art lab built an integration that would ingest the email list for his art labs group",{"_20":6315,"_90":271,"_272":6316,"_141":2462},"ca5b4da5a028",[],{"_20":6318,"_90":271,"_272":6319,"_141":6321},"b926d69cd802",[6320],"84378ae","and print all of the emails on a receipt printer.",{"_20":6323,"_90":271,"_272":6324,"_141":2462},"8fda4267e2f3",[],{"_20":6326,"_90":271,"_272":6327,"_141":6329},"434a0ce6e337",[6328],"bf68a25","And so he literally had like a thousand feet of emails that were printed using our API, which, it was just like I would never imagine that anyone would build something so bizarre.",[6331,6333,6335,6337],{"_20":6301,"_90":2478,"_2479":6332},"00:35:17.960",{"_20":6312,"_90":2478,"_2479":6334},"00:35:24.620",{"_20":6320,"_90":2478,"_2479":6336},"00:35:35.839",{"_20":6328,"_90":2478,"_2479":6338},"00:35:39.440",{"_20":6340,"_90":266,"_267":6341,"_275":6355,"_277":278},"c4ef59ffd67b",[6342,6347,6350],{"_20":6343,"_90":271,"_272":6344,"_141":6346},"b76afa9490ec",[6345],"df83237","But it was cool because we were thinking of it as being something that's really kind of business focused, and we had people like, oh I just want",{"_20":6348,"_90":271,"_272":6349,"_141":2462},"1e5421e7fa12",[],{"_20":6351,"_90":271,"_272":6352,"_141":6354},"12d7d00cd637",[6353],"706d31f","to do this weird hack, and I can use the API for that as well.",[6356,6358],{"_20":6345,"_90":2478,"_2479":6357},"00:35:51.020",{"_20":6353,"_90":2478,"_2479":6359},"00:36:00.760",{"_20":6361,"_90":266,"_267":6362,"_275":6387,"_277":278},"f2ae891f6730",[6363,6367,6371,6374,6379,6382],{"_20":6364,"_90":271,"_272":6365,"_141":3017},"4ce2eb1039b5",[6366,1150],"efe7664",{"_20":6368,"_90":271,"_272":6369,"_141":6370},"f31e5b6bc5a8",[6366]," Like James said, I mean for us that's the whole point.",{"_20":6372,"_90":271,"_272":6373,"_141":2462},"bdd1ca7ab0c1",[],{"_20":6375,"_90":271,"_272":6376,"_141":6378},"4af3f3c8d8fb",[6377],"807f289","We think that historical event data is valuable",{"_20":6380,"_90":271,"_272":6381,"_141":2462},"c1bdd7ee6db5",[],{"_20":6383,"_90":271,"_272":6384,"_141":6386},"9f2e4e63ac22",[6385],"fb2bf2a","precisely because it could be useful in an unlimited number of ways.",[6388,6390,6392],{"_20":6366,"_90":2478,"_2479":6389},"00:36:04.359",{"_20":6377,"_90":2478,"_2479":6391},"00:36:08.200",{"_20":6385,"_90":2478,"_2479":6393},"00:36:12.380",{"_20":6395,"_90":266,"_267":6396,"_275":6410,"_277":278},"e6a86873380a",[6397,6402,6405],{"_20":6398,"_90":271,"_272":6399,"_141":6401},"7374420ddec0",[6400],"a07005a","And for us, the surprises are the most fulfilling part of my work too.",{"_20":6403,"_90":271,"_272":6404,"_141":2462},"5c2984e93a4b",[],{"_20":6406,"_90":271,"_272":6407,"_141":6409},"f79904fffb5e",[6408],"a9e3906","I think it's always exciting to hear that strange thing somebody came up with, or to hear the new thing.",[6411,6413],{"_20":6400,"_90":2478,"_2479":6412},"00:36:16.940",{"_20":6408,"_90":2478,"_2479":6414},"00:36:22.299",{"_20":6416,"_90":266,"_267":6417,"_275":6431,"_277":278},"ce75ad5c1504",[6418,6423,6426],{"_20":6419,"_90":271,"_272":6420,"_141":6422},"d758dd51ce26",[6421],"49b5e4b","Like when we're getting started, we were trying to describe these concepts to people and investors and press and whatever.",{"_20":6424,"_90":271,"_272":6425,"_141":2462},"647074f539a2",[],{"_20":6427,"_90":271,"_272":6428,"_141":6430},"9d1d965c882f",[6429],"7b52c86","And I always used a few go-to examples of, why would you need a platform for this?",[6432,6434],{"_20":6421,"_90":2478,"_2479":6433},"00:36:27.920",{"_20":6429,"_90":2478,"_2479":6435},"00:36:32.640",{"_20":6437,"_90":266,"_267":6438,"_275":6460,"_277":278},"862405852703",[6439,6444,6447,6452,6455],{"_20":6440,"_90":271,"_272":6441,"_141":6443},"786b6d893075",[6442],"1f82fbd","And one of them was, objects are gonna be on the internet.",{"_20":6445,"_90":271,"_272":6446,"_141":2462},"51325c15ec29",[],{"_20":6448,"_90":271,"_272":6449,"_141":6451},"11d8998e30e2",[6450],"2405236","It's a thing. Connected device explosion.",{"_20":6453,"_90":271,"_272":6454,"_141":2462},"22e5571da1d3",[],{"_20":6456,"_90":271,"_272":6457,"_141":6459},"b978e3980c14",[6458],"b046c51","And I had this smartwatch and smart tractor thing on my first failed Series A pitch deck.",[6461,6463,6465],{"_20":6442,"_90":2478,"_2479":6462},"00:36:38.040",{"_20":6450,"_90":2478,"_2479":6464},"00:36:41.080",{"_20":6458,"_90":2478,"_2479":6466},"00:36:43.000",{"_20":6468,"_90":266,"_267":6469,"_275":6491,"_277":1728},"e27634725f9b",[6470,6475,6478,6483,6486],{"_20":6471,"_90":271,"_272":6472,"_141":6474},"7c0efc804164",[6473],"42b3a16","And three years later we had pretty much four of the big six smart wearable companies.",{"_20":6476,"_90":271,"_272":6477,"_141":2462},"cf0a686f092b",[],{"_20":6479,"_90":271,"_272":6480,"_141":6482},"92cb570f92db",[6481],"2452c87","We had John Deere literally using us for their smart tractor.",{"_20":6484,"_90":271,"_272":6485,"_141":2462},"fe4d4cb4518e",[],{"_20":6487,"_90":271,"_272":6488,"_141":6490},"5d2d40aae3fc",[6489],"5436be2","So that was surprising, because it's surprising sometimes when you're right too.",[6492,6494,6496],{"_20":6473,"_90":2478,"_2479":6493},"00:36:50.600",{"_20":6481,"_90":2478,"_2479":6495},"00:37:01.000",{"_20":6489,"_90":2478,"_2479":6497},"00:37:06.380",{"_20":6499,"_90":266,"_267":6500,"_275":6530,"_277":278},"7aa8d9bc5c1a",[6501,6506,6509,6514,6517,6522,6525],{"_20":6502,"_90":271,"_272":6503,"_141":6505},"440a2f8310ef",[6504],"364078e","But that's kind of the power of something that captures emerging needs.",{"_20":6507,"_90":271,"_272":6508,"_141":2462},"809de03d469e",[],{"_20":6510,"_90":271,"_272":6511,"_141":6513},"df215733b605",[6512],"9d76bde","And now we have all these chat, we just got our eighth chatbot customer, and the first six we didn't even know, and we were looking at the API traffic and we're like, this is weird.",{"_20":6515,"_90":271,"_272":6516,"_141":2462},"e3f311c99cf0",[],{"_20":6518,"_90":271,"_272":6519,"_141":6521},"54751e4e5ba6",[6520],"ddd0b0c","They have long strings and everything.",{"_20":6523,"_90":271,"_272":6524,"_141":2462},"7b8ba2e76208",[],{"_20":6526,"_90":271,"_272":6527,"_141":6529},"95543ed99c3f",[6528],"4cbf4d7","Why would you have long strings?",[6531,6533,6535,6537],{"_20":6504,"_90":2478,"_2479":6532},"00:37:11.260",{"_20":6512,"_90":2478,"_2479":6534},"00:37:15.920",{"_20":6520,"_90":2478,"_2479":6536},"00:37:22.880",{"_20":6528,"_90":2478,"_2479":6538},"00:37:24.920",{"_20":6540,"_90":266,"_267":6541,"_275":6555,"_277":278},"15188e453c66",[6542,6547,6550],{"_20":6543,"_90":271,"_272":6544,"_141":6546},"c3ef17e9da71",[6545],"e4d5909","We emailed them, because we don't look at their data, and they were like, oh yeah, we're sending you message data.",{"_20":6548,"_90":271,"_272":6549,"_141":2462},"9e85b8f6974f",[],{"_20":6551,"_90":271,"_272":6552,"_141":6554},"ca598880de5a",[6553],"fc465b7","And apparently chatbots are a big trend.",[6556,6558],{"_20":6545,"_90":2478,"_2479":6557},"00:37:26.600",{"_20":6553,"_90":2478,"_2479":6559},"00:37:31.240",{"_20":6561,"_90":266,"_267":6562,"_275":6592,"_277":278},"6a330b90b3ba",[6563,6568,6571,6576,6579,6584,6587],{"_20":6564,"_90":271,"_272":6565,"_141":6567},"114dc16995e9",[6566],"14581bc","So consumer IoT and chatbots, and now there are a few VR companies.",{"_20":6569,"_90":271,"_272":6570,"_141":2462},"8981771b8b92",[],{"_20":6572,"_90":271,"_272":6573,"_141":6575},"4ccec158c5d7",[6574],"f941167","So for us it's really fun to see what trend Gartner's gonna talk about in two years, because developers are the people building it now.",{"_20":6577,"_90":271,"_272":6578,"_141":2462},"938ea88ccd14",[],{"_20":6580,"_90":271,"_272":6581,"_141":6583},"6650fde6ee3b",[6582],"587f3d5","So that's the most exciting part for me.",{"_20":6585,"_90":271,"_272":6586,"_141":2462},"dfeee2c6264b",[],{"_20":6588,"_90":271,"_272":6589,"_141":6591},"ddd2b85d10a5",[6590],"a5d7cc3","It's just really pretty cool.",[6593,6595,6597,6599],{"_20":6566,"_90":2478,"_2479":6594},"00:37:33.080",{"_20":6574,"_90":2478,"_2479":6596},"00:37:36.120",{"_20":6582,"_90":2478,"_2479":6598},"00:37:43.039",{"_20":6590,"_90":2478,"_2479":6600},"00:37:45.520",{"_20":6602,"_90":266,"_267":6603,"_275":6608,"_277":368},"7d875546e48d",[6604],{"_20":6605,"_90":271,"_272":6606,"_141":6607},"eba04929c239",[],"Open Source and Roadmaps",[],{"_20":6610,"_90":266,"_267":6611,"_275":6628,"_277":278},"00957c636606",[6612,6616,6620,6623],{"_20":6613,"_90":271,"_272":6614,"_141":2531},"d5bdce84abaa",[6615,1150],"b467295",{"_20":6617,"_90":271,"_272":6618,"_141":6619},"26024fdba02f",[6615]," So the three of you are building obviously cloud services and APIs.",{"_20":6621,"_90":271,"_272":6622,"_141":2462},"437e0004b71b",[],{"_20":6624,"_90":271,"_272":6625,"_141":6627},"fe61b671a7e5",[6626],"fada217","I'm curious to hear more from you around how open source changed the perception of your company, and how it can benefit the company. I know for instance Christine you started in the open source really early on, right?",[6629,6631],{"_20":6615,"_90":2478,"_2479":6630},"00:37:47.640",{"_20":6626,"_90":2478,"_2479":6632},"00:37:50.760",{"_20":6634,"_90":266,"_267":6635,"_275":6649,"_277":278},"732bd8285a60",[6636,6641,6644],{"_20":6637,"_90":271,"_272":6638,"_141":6640},"134fe3890deb",[6639],"8fa9931","When you were in high school you contributed Debian.",{"_20":6642,"_90":271,"_272":6643,"_141":2462},"2b0ed0635cae",[],{"_20":6645,"_90":271,"_272":6646,"_141":6648},"f5fe122c6fd9",[6647],"3165473","How does that experience change your perception to open source, and how can you engage in a really positive way with the open source community when you're building those cloud services?",[6650,6652],{"_20":6639,"_90":2478,"_2479":6651},"00:38:02.080",{"_20":6647,"_90":2478,"_2479":6653},"00:38:04.400",{"_20":6655,"_90":266,"_267":6656,"_275":6681,"_277":278},"cda90dfa9216",[6657,6661,6665,6668,6673,6676],{"_20":6658,"_90":271,"_272":6659,"_141":2920},"58c1a7e583ff",[6660,1150],"50671bc",{"_20":6662,"_90":271,"_272":6663,"_141":6664},"07e5939f3b3f",[6660]," Yeah, I think that one of the things that we did that was pretty unique was we released an open source version of our actual server software.",{"_20":6666,"_90":271,"_272":6667,"_141":2462},"b32913bb4d36",[],{"_20":6669,"_90":271,"_272":6670,"_141":6672},"c85e22efe0e7",[6671],"487379f","So lots of people are releasing their SDKs on GitHub and stuff like that.",{"_20":6674,"_90":271,"_272":6675,"_141":2462},"6aa4b198c452",[],{"_20":6677,"_90":271,"_272":6678,"_141":6680},"442c5f3bb301",[6679],"b5edc9c","But we actually released a version of the piece of software that we use to sync email and serve our API.",[6682,6684,6686],{"_20":6660,"_90":2478,"_2479":6683},"00:38:15.620",{"_20":6671,"_90":2478,"_2479":6685},"00:38:24.520",{"_20":6679,"_90":2478,"_2479":6687},"00:38:29.400",{"_20":6689,"_90":266,"_267":6690,"_275":6712,"_277":278},"d866a106e2a3",[6691,6696,6699,6704,6707],{"_20":6692,"_90":271,"_272":6693,"_141":6695},"f69713e3ff87",[6694],"2439d77","And we're like super scared when we flipped a bit on the repo to make it public on GitHub, and we're like, what if, I don't know, something terrible happens.",{"_20":6697,"_90":271,"_272":6698,"_141":2462},"1a9e023362d8",[],{"_20":6700,"_90":271,"_272":6701,"_141":6703},"46b35eeea873",[6702],"b1e3a3a","And it turned out that no one discovered this repo for like six months first.",{"_20":6705,"_90":271,"_272":6706,"_141":2462},"d4da6e703b78",[],{"_20":6708,"_90":271,"_272":6709,"_141":6711},"c4c6f3b38866",[6710],"7f4158c","Then when they did discover the repo, first nothing happened.",[6713,6715,6717],{"_20":6694,"_90":2478,"_2479":6714},"00:38:35.640",{"_20":6702,"_90":2478,"_2479":6716},"00:38:45.780",{"_20":6710,"_90":2478,"_2479":6718},"00:38:50.180",{"_20":6720,"_90":266,"_267":6721,"_275":6735,"_277":278},"22992cd80f0f",[6722,6727,6730],{"_20":6723,"_90":271,"_272":6724,"_141":6726},"f1f5ec6782bc",[6725],"8f3a397","And then over a while we actually started using the presence of having this repo open source on GitHub",{"_20":6728,"_90":271,"_272":6729,"_141":2462},"7e48ec76d59a",[],{"_20":6731,"_90":271,"_272":6732,"_141":6734},"564d331f6106",[6733],"f5fc552","to help developers feel more comfortable starting to build on the platform.",[6736,6738],{"_20":6725,"_90":2478,"_2479":6737},"00:38:54.800",{"_20":6733,"_90":2478,"_2479":6739},"00:39:03.200",{"_20":6741,"_90":266,"_267":6742,"_275":6772,"_277":278},"398eb35979aa",[6743,6748,6751,6756,6759,6764,6767],{"_20":6744,"_90":271,"_272":6745,"_141":6747},"196a19ea2908",[6746],"2053fd9","So one thing that we heard over and over again was that when you're building a new product, you want",{"_20":6749,"_90":271,"_272":6750,"_141":2462},"27aa006f19a3",[],{"_20":6752,"_90":271,"_272":6753,"_141":6755},"e9c524040a2d",[6754],"b34e85b","to make sure that if the company you're building on goes out of business, then you're not screwed.",{"_20":6757,"_90":271,"_272":6758,"_141":2462},"58e252f9b7cc",[],{"_20":6760,"_90":271,"_272":6761,"_141":6763},"dacc6cad9343",[6762],"0175986","We could, in those sales calls, tell them like, well, if anything happens to the company, we know it's really early, but we released this on GitHub and you can run it on your own",{"_20":6765,"_90":271,"_272":6766,"_141":2462},"bf840894f1ae",[],{"_20":6768,"_90":271,"_272":6769,"_141":6771},"c67177aca4c4",[6770],"52b35ba","and just run it on-prem if anything happens to the company.",[6773,6775,6777,6779],{"_20":6746,"_90":2478,"_2479":6774},"00:39:10.360",{"_20":6754,"_90":2478,"_2479":6776},"00:39:17.579",{"_20":6762,"_90":2478,"_2479":6778},"00:39:23.740",{"_20":6770,"_90":2478,"_2479":6780},"00:39:35.319",{"_20":6782,"_90":266,"_267":6783,"_275":6797,"_277":278},"de991510bcc9",[6784,6789,6792],{"_20":6785,"_90":271,"_272":6786,"_141":6788},"cdefca67c715",[6787],"83f6519","Plus there's a security aspect, especially when dealing with email, where people are really concerned about security and privacy. And that really helped us to be like, well, you can just go look at the code and read it and",{"_20":6790,"_90":271,"_272":6791,"_141":2462},"24f3242793bf",[],{"_20":6793,"_90":271,"_272":6794,"_141":6796},"16ac71dbc761",[6795],"4307354","see exactly what we're doing behind the scenes.",[6798,6800],{"_20":6787,"_90":2478,"_2479":6799},"00:39:39.280",{"_20":6795,"_90":2478,"_2479":6801},"00:39:51.200",{"_20":6803,"_90":266,"_267":6804,"_275":6818,"_277":1728},"08f6ebd9d858",[6805,6810,6813],{"_20":6806,"_90":271,"_272":6807,"_141":6809},"7deebaae2f08",[6808],"52a0736","So I think the things we got out of it was, it really comes down to trust.",{"_20":6811,"_90":271,"_272":6812,"_141":2462},"c2495a413d12",[],{"_20":6814,"_90":271,"_272":6815,"_141":6817},"96a9a44cd8d6",[6816],"fa8b69b","In different aspects, trust when it comes to security, and trust when it comes to, will you be around in two years when my app is taking off?",[6819,6821],{"_20":6808,"_90":2478,"_2479":6820},"00:39:53.840",{"_20":6816,"_90":2478,"_2479":6822},"00:39:57.840",{"_20":6824,"_90":266,"_267":6825,"_275":6834,"_277":278},"0825e12fe5f1",[6826,6830],{"_20":6827,"_90":271,"_272":6828,"_141":2531},"08e08b34aea7",[6829,1150],"a937687",{"_20":6831,"_90":271,"_272":6832,"_141":6833},"8c1fbeba0bf0",[6829]," So you would see open source as a key component to also not only build a community but also inspire confidence into building for your platform, basically.",[6835],{"_20":6829,"_90":2478,"_2479":6836},"00:40:05.880",{"_20":6838,"_90":266,"_267":6839,"_275":6856,"_277":278},"abe7bbe5e999",[6840,6844,6848,6851],{"_20":6841,"_90":271,"_272":6842,"_141":2920},"76ba1e883db4",[6843,1150],"f2e16e0",{"_20":6845,"_90":271,"_272":6846,"_141":6847},"46a793464767",[6843]," Yeah, I mean you gotta get over the hump of people not seeing you as something that they can depend on.",{"_20":6849,"_90":271,"_272":6850,"_141":2462},"4c6e15369539",[],{"_20":6852,"_90":271,"_272":6853,"_141":6855},"92bdf9f3c0af",[6854],"9e98b1d","And open source for us was a key component of getting over that hump.",[6857,6859],{"_20":6843,"_90":2478,"_2479":6858},"00:40:13.940",{"_20":6854,"_90":2478,"_2479":6860},"00:40:20.180",{"_20":6862,"_90":266,"_267":6863,"_275":6872,"_277":278},"cd095f376fbe",[6864,6868],{"_20":6865,"_90":271,"_272":6866,"_141":2531},"c43aed14655d",[6867,1150],"732d372",{"_20":6869,"_90":271,"_272":6870,"_141":6871},"abd8799a25f8",[6867]," How do you approach open source at Keen, Kyle?",[6873],{"_20":6867,"_90":2478,"_2479":6874},"00:40:25.720",{"_20":6876,"_90":266,"_267":6877,"_275":6894,"_277":278},"24dbcd210fb7",[6878,6882,6886,6889],{"_20":6879,"_90":271,"_272":6880,"_141":3017},"5b7147086d9a",[6881,1150],"28a6619",{"_20":6883,"_90":271,"_272":6884,"_141":6885},"d51d27e00ab3",[6881]," We haven't gotten to that stage, although we've thought about it for years.",{"_20":6887,"_90":271,"_272":6888,"_141":2462},"38703626cc67",[],{"_20":6890,"_90":271,"_272":6891,"_141":6893},"e81fd8ef0486",[6892],"60a1488","So we do what a lot of people do, which is make a bunch of SDKs, make it easy to consume, right?",[6895,6897],{"_20":6881,"_90":2478,"_2479":6896},"00:40:28.839",{"_20":6892,"_90":2478,"_2479":6898},"00:40:31.880",{"_20":6900,"_90":266,"_267":6901,"_275":6915,"_277":278},"c7ee6728e7db",[6902,6907,6910],{"_20":6903,"_90":271,"_272":6904,"_141":6906},"9335ba9ce55a",[6905],"1412448","We make money on consumption, so what can we do to drive it?",{"_20":6908,"_90":271,"_272":6909,"_141":2462},"54508ee76bf1",[],{"_20":6911,"_90":271,"_272":6912,"_141":6914},"4c4ec8972fe6",[6913],"3332efb","Open source is a great way to do that, particularly to get us into languages where we're not fluent.",[6916,6918],{"_20":6905,"_90":2478,"_2479":6917},"00:40:36.680",{"_20":6913,"_90":2478,"_2479":6919},"00:40:39.640",{"_20":6921,"_90":266,"_267":6922,"_275":6928,"_277":278},"e4fdc8ce466a",[6923],{"_20":6924,"_90":271,"_272":6925,"_141":6927},"2c6f2a2956a9",[6926],"c4565ba","One of our kind of core principles around this is we don't want SDKs out there to kind of be the Keen supported SDK for language, and when you read that you can, I call it read like writing it with an accent.",[6929],{"_20":6926,"_90":2478,"_2479":6930},"00:40:45.960",{"_20":6932,"_90":266,"_267":6933,"_275":6971,"_277":278},"61e457b81a31",[6934,6939,6942,6947,6950,6955,6958,6963,6966],{"_20":6935,"_90":271,"_272":6936,"_141":6938},"7aa06f8520e7",[6937],"48a7d90","Like if I wrote a .NET SDK,",{"_20":6940,"_90":271,"_272":6941,"_141":2462},"1a4a7dcd6dd1",[],{"_20":6943,"_90":271,"_272":6944,"_141":6946},"c417a7b5699f",[6945],"66f187e","it would have an accent. It wouldn't, to a",{"_20":6948,"_90":271,"_272":6949,"_141":2462},"ad5737f7bc93",[],{"_20":6951,"_90":271,"_272":6952,"_141":6954},"df252d11a6b7",[6953],"f171952",".NET developer it would look like somebody that is not a",{"_20":6956,"_90":271,"_272":6957,"_141":2462},"5bc13eea45d8",[],{"_20":6959,"_90":271,"_272":6960,"_141":6962},"ebe153f0f04b",[6961],"62b68b2",".NET developer made this. And that was, as a developer, something that always made me think twice about a given piece of software, if it's like,",{"_20":6964,"_90":271,"_272":6965,"_141":2462},"b0927e7ba752",[],{"_20":6967,"_90":271,"_272":6968,"_141":6970},"6e772a19a875",[6969],"721eba5","this AWS Python script is not written by people who have ever written Python.",[6972,6974,6976,6978,6980],{"_20":6937,"_90":2478,"_2479":6973},"00:40:56.820",{"_20":6945,"_90":2478,"_2479":6975},"00:40:58.840",{"_20":6953,"_90":2478,"_2479":6977},"00:41:01.000",{"_20":6961,"_90":2478,"_2479":6979},"00:41:03.160",{"_20":6969,"_90":2478,"_2479":6981},"00:41:13.100",{"_20":6983,"_90":266,"_267":6984,"_275":6998,"_277":278},"2e9f228a0942",[6985,6990,6993],{"_20":6986,"_90":271,"_272":6987,"_141":6989},"1959cb63fcb5",[6988],"3e46335","Like what, there wouldn't be like 900 class files.",{"_20":6991,"_90":271,"_272":6992,"_141":2462},"22479e07bbd5",[],{"_20":6994,"_90":271,"_272":6995,"_141":6997},"b8f2da19a4a0",[6996],"e31b405","Yeah, there's like nine hundred class files and this crazy abstract tree of, no.",[6999,7001],{"_20":6988,"_90":2478,"_2479":7000},"00:41:17.580",{"_20":6996,"_90":2478,"_2479":7002},"00:41:20.460",{"_20":7004,"_90":266,"_267":7005,"_275":7019,"_277":278},"a6c69ae96103",[7006,7011,7014],{"_20":7007,"_90":271,"_272":7008,"_141":7010},"d54c15a2d8dc",[7009],"53405e2","I mean, not that that's the wrong way to make all kinds of software, but it didn't smell right, you know. So we focus on the kind of quality of the ones that we officially support,",{"_20":7012,"_90":271,"_272":7013,"_141":2462},"0ed1364ef042",[],{"_20":7015,"_90":271,"_272":7016,"_141":7018},"e21768474348",[7017],"04f614a","and then similarly we've spent a fair amount of time making things just to show what's possible.",[7020,7022],{"_20":7009,"_90":2478,"_2479":7021},"00:41:25.100",{"_20":7017,"_90":2478,"_2479":7023},"00:41:34.740",{"_20":7025,"_90":266,"_267":7026,"_275":7056,"_277":278},"aedec87ba3c4",[7027,7032,7035,7040,7043,7048,7051],{"_20":7028,"_90":271,"_272":7029,"_141":7031},"be34ae2e33fb",[7030],"e315ba6","So we have, there's the SDKs, like bindings, how do I use the API. And then there's stuff that you can do in addition to that, right?",{"_20":7033,"_90":271,"_272":7034,"_141":2462},"b7acf44ddb61",[],{"_20":7036,"_90":271,"_272":7037,"_141":7039},"bf9ce78bf11f",[7038],"8aa0b2e","So like we have a library, like a fairly big data visualization library that's really just how to make dashboards in Bootstrap.",{"_20":7041,"_90":271,"_272":7042,"_141":2462},"e30f88bfaf88",[],{"_20":7044,"_90":271,"_272":7045,"_141":7047},"6e224cf98564",[7046],"c9a9c86","And it drives a lot of growth for us.",{"_20":7049,"_90":271,"_272":7050,"_141":2462},"e225ce4b1fbe",[],{"_20":7052,"_90":271,"_272":7053,"_141":7055},"9e2889d57566",[7054],"6f67826","It also gets to, we get to show off, because that's a skill set we have on the team.",[7057,7059,7061,7063],{"_20":7030,"_90":2478,"_2479":7058},"00:41:39.380",{"_20":7038,"_90":2478,"_2479":7060},"00:41:46.520",{"_20":7046,"_90":2478,"_2479":7062},"00:41:54.279",{"_20":7054,"_90":2478,"_2479":7064},"00:41:56.940",{"_20":7066,"_90":266,"_267":7067,"_275":7081,"_277":278},"5b9b43fbe5ac",[7068,7073,7076],{"_20":7069,"_90":271,"_272":7070,"_141":7072},"c1139ef3fdda",[7071],"7e0c0ca","We get to show kind of really clean code quality.",{"_20":7074,"_90":271,"_272":7075,"_141":2462},"0e524e50343e",[],{"_20":7077,"_90":271,"_272":7078,"_141":7080},"e2c96e31ce41",[7079],"b9db895","We think any code that the company puts out is marketing for what's underneath, even if we don't share everything.",[7082,7084],{"_20":7071,"_90":2478,"_2479":7083},"00:42:03.500",{"_20":7079,"_90":2478,"_2479":7085},"00:42:05.340",{"_20":7087,"_90":266,"_267":7088,"_275":7110,"_277":278},"5f0ec7c819a0",[7089,7094,7097,7102,7105],{"_20":7090,"_90":271,"_272":7091,"_141":7093},"db3ac9d5c59c",[7092],"3efa0f3","And then reference architecture, like I didn't know that was possible.",{"_20":7095,"_90":271,"_272":7096,"_141":2462},"4ab707fabc00",[],{"_20":7098,"_90":271,"_272":7099,"_141":7101},"48e065b17575",[7100],"fdbcb6e","Like Josh over there, when he worked for us, made this thing that lets you automate like Slack messages based on historical event state, which is",{"_20":7103,"_90":271,"_272":7104,"_141":2462},"68f4e26897da",[],{"_20":7106,"_90":271,"_272":7107,"_141":7109},"e414bd9d9213",[7108],"8131edd","incredible and super useful, but it also opened us up to this whole new market around automation, which became a problem because we weren't even charging for the right things at the time.",[7111,7113,7115],{"_20":7092,"_90":2478,"_2479":7112},"00:42:10.720",{"_20":7100,"_90":2478,"_2479":7114},"00:42:15.039",{"_20":7108,"_90":2478,"_2479":7116},"00:42:23.420",{"_20":7118,"_90":266,"_267":7119,"_275":7128,"_277":278},"6b2e87aebc84",[7120,7124],{"_20":7121,"_90":271,"_272":7122,"_141":2885},"fe74ca116800",[7123,1150],"e856133",{"_20":7125,"_90":271,"_272":7126,"_141":7127},"886bb4c11adb",[7123]," Are your official SDKs open source?",[7129],{"_20":7123,"_90":2478,"_2479":7130},"00:42:39.940",{"_20":7132,"_90":266,"_267":7133,"_275":7150,"_277":278},"c1249a308665",[7134,7138,7142,7145],{"_20":7135,"_90":271,"_272":7136,"_141":3017},"6a7d053800a3",[7137,1150],"b084588",{"_20":7139,"_90":271,"_272":7140,"_141":7141},"a1d2e2ed5daa",[7137]," Yeah. Have they ever not been?",{"_20":7143,"_90":271,"_272":7144,"_141":2462},"a90074734781",[],{"_20":7146,"_90":271,"_272":7147,"_141":7149},"3683927a206e",[7148],"03856cf","They've always been open source.",[7151,7153],{"_20":7137,"_90":2478,"_2479":7152},"00:42:42.100",{"_20":7148,"_90":2478,"_2479":7154},"00:42:45.060",{"_20":7156,"_90":266,"_267":7157,"_275":7174,"_277":278},"0b3435d66fb0",[7158,7162,7166,7169],{"_20":7159,"_90":271,"_272":7160,"_141":2885},"c0836bc18655",[7161,1150],"c0f6305",{"_20":7163,"_90":271,"_272":7164,"_141":7165},"7d8033b87759",[7161]," So there's some threshold that you need to get over.",{"_20":7167,"_90":271,"_272":7168,"_141":2462},"333f7eafbf1b",[],{"_20":7170,"_90":271,"_272":7171,"_141":7173},"18ddee5c1675",[7172],"b437bb5","And I think the threshold is, the bar on that threshold is set based on the size of the pain point that you're solving.",[7175,7177],{"_20":7161,"_90":2478,"_2479":7176},"00:42:47.620",{"_20":7172,"_90":2478,"_2479":7178},"00:42:50.340",{"_20":7180,"_90":266,"_267":7181,"_275":7195,"_277":278},"6139ac71ea6e",[7182,7187,7190],{"_20":7183,"_90":271,"_272":7184,"_141":7186},"a8c193bd285f",[7185],"dd510d4","Like if you're solving a big enough pain point, developers will go with you even if you aren't open source.",{"_20":7188,"_90":271,"_272":7189,"_141":2462},"7ba4aeef40d7",[],{"_20":7191,"_90":271,"_272":7192,"_141":7194},"a62c2d5591a2",[7193],"e46cc33","They would certainly prefer to be open source.",[7196,7198],{"_20":7185,"_90":2478,"_2479":7197},"00:42:57.340",{"_20":7193,"_90":2478,"_2479":7199},"00:43:03.740",{"_20":7201,"_90":266,"_267":7202,"_275":7232,"_277":278},"bffc0a01e140",[7203,7208,7211,7216,7219,7224,7227],{"_20":7204,"_90":271,"_272":7205,"_141":7207},"294e9eaacb87",[7206],"a3e8d77","As Kyle was saying, the secret sauce and all of the value is our back end, like cloud hosted services.",{"_20":7209,"_90":271,"_272":7210,"_141":2462},"28afa9afeda3",[],{"_20":7212,"_90":271,"_272":7213,"_141":7215},"a81ca9c9a6ca",[7214],"dea79d8","So we've wanted to get around to open sourcing our SDKs, but haven't, just because of the developer workflows and everyone sending in pull requests and how do we manage that and triage them and set up the processes, and",{"_20":7217,"_90":271,"_272":7218,"_141":2462},"dde96ce59506",[],{"_20":7220,"_90":271,"_272":7221,"_141":7223},"ab9de0ee4c2a",[7222],"868de7f","we just sort of never got around to it.",{"_20":7225,"_90":271,"_272":7226,"_141":2462},"1f97ff18e836",[],{"_20":7228,"_90":271,"_272":7229,"_141":7231},"3482369436dc",[7230],"d7057d6","But I think because of the pain point we were solving we were able to, though. In retrospect maybe would have done it a little earlier.",[7233,7235,7237,7239],{"_20":7206,"_90":2478,"_2479":7234},"00:43:05.580",{"_20":7214,"_90":2478,"_2479":7236},"00:43:11.960",{"_20":7222,"_90":2478,"_2479":7238},"00:43:23.579",{"_20":7230,"_90":2478,"_2479":7240},"00:43:25.260",{"_20":7242,"_90":266,"_267":7243,"_275":7260,"_277":278},"2547028f3844",[7244,7248,7252,7255],{"_20":7245,"_90":271,"_272":7246,"_141":2531},"7902a166cceb",[7247,1150],"3aa6c06",{"_20":7249,"_90":271,"_272":7250,"_141":7251},"ed1ee4c4bd4f",[7247]," Great. I like how you speak about secret sauce, because if you guys did not know, in the early days Firebase used to give away actual hot sauce at hackathons, right?",{"_20":7253,"_90":271,"_272":7254,"_141":2462},"dd179843b13b",[],{"_20":7256,"_90":271,"_272":7257,"_141":7259},"20622d22dcff",[7258],"29bb4b8","Do you still do that?",[7261,7263],{"_20":7247,"_90":2478,"_2479":7262},"00:43:33.200",{"_20":7258,"_90":2478,"_2479":7264},"00:43:41.440",{"_20":7266,"_90":266,"_267":7267,"_275":7276,"_277":278},"964086914905",[7268,7272],{"_20":7269,"_90":271,"_272":7270,"_141":2885},"8491b7098245",[7271,1150],"5846e62",{"_20":7273,"_90":271,"_272":7274,"_141":7275},"a8fddd4d077b",[7271]," Oh yeah, we do.",[7277],{"_20":7271,"_90":2478,"_2479":7278},"00:43:42.640",{"_20":7280,"_90":266,"_267":7281,"_275":7298,"_277":278},"1c1b2b42f3d3",[7282,7286,7290,7293],{"_20":7283,"_90":271,"_272":7284,"_141":2531},"48bc8bfb17f9",[7285,1150],"338c07a",{"_20":7287,"_90":271,"_272":7288,"_141":7289},"7a198bc09125",[7285]," So one last question for you guys, and I think we're gonna open up for questions in the audience.",{"_20":7291,"_90":271,"_272":7292,"_141":2462},"dab42f507009",[],{"_20":7294,"_90":271,"_272":7295,"_141":7297},"39574e34fe16",[7296],"b0a21d6","So if you have some questions in your mind, we're gonna pass along a mic.",[7299,7301],{"_20":7285,"_90":2478,"_2479":7300},"00:43:44.720",{"_20":7296,"_90":2478,"_2479":7302},"00:43:48.560",{"_20":7304,"_90":266,"_267":7305,"_275":7327,"_277":278},"bdf2e8442a9c",[7306,7311,7314,7319,7322],{"_20":7307,"_90":271,"_272":7308,"_141":7310},"8b7f04de2973",[7309],"0df3b17","One question I would ask you is around, how do you share your roadmap with your community of developers, and to what extent do you take community feedback into it?",{"_20":7312,"_90":271,"_272":7313,"_141":2462},"11b8aec003e6",[],{"_20":7315,"_90":271,"_272":7316,"_141":7318},"81602addf2ac",[7317],"101ab17","So I know for instance that Slack on the platform side, they experimented with a Trello board where they have all these ideas and then people can come along and put them into the Trello board.",{"_20":7320,"_90":271,"_272":7321,"_141":2462},"9b175d6588f0",[],{"_20":7323,"_90":271,"_272":7324,"_141":7326},"bd17ca88cb80",[7325],"65ee7ec","I think that's something that you have experimented with, Christine.",[7328,7330,7332],{"_20":7309,"_90":2478,"_2479":7329},"00:43:51.280",{"_20":7317,"_90":2478,"_2479":7331},"00:44:02.340",{"_20":7325,"_90":2478,"_2479":7333},"00:44:11.300",{"_20":7335,"_90":266,"_267":7336,"_275":7361,"_277":278},"05d6a76088f9",[7337,7341,7345,7348,7353,7356],{"_20":7338,"_90":271,"_272":7339,"_141":2920},"d8a9e182019f",[7340,1150],"9812966",{"_20":7342,"_90":271,"_272":7343,"_141":7344},"e63ee4acfe4d",[7340]," Yeah, we've done a few different things over time, but probably one of the most successful things was having a Trello board where users could actually go and vote on things they wanted us to build.",{"_20":7346,"_90":271,"_272":7347,"_141":2462},"78746d0094f8",[],{"_20":7349,"_90":271,"_272":7350,"_141":7352},"939a95fe3403",[7351],"7dd9fdf","So that was a way that people could feel like they had input into our roadmap, when in reality, when you're",{"_20":7354,"_90":271,"_272":7355,"_141":2462},"cd016ab02db4",[],{"_20":7357,"_90":271,"_272":7358,"_141":7360},"168a25e3e4f1",[7359],"04e974f","making the roadmap, it's like your internal needs and the things of your customers, and then the community needs is like only a small piece of how you're doing your planning.",[7362,7364,7366],{"_20":7340,"_90":2478,"_2479":7363},"00:44:14.020",{"_20":7351,"_90":2478,"_2479":7365},"00:44:23.740",{"_20":7359,"_90":2478,"_2479":7367},"00:44:31.840",{"_20":7369,"_90":266,"_267":7370,"_275":7392,"_277":278},"01500d6c1079",[7371,7376,7379,7384,7387],{"_20":7372,"_90":271,"_272":7373,"_141":7375},"1daf1f01eda2",[7374],"b032a38","But having a way for, having something to tell people who are like, I wanna see this thing.",{"_20":7377,"_90":271,"_272":7378,"_141":2462},"d1f410bdd057",[],{"_20":7380,"_90":271,"_272":7381,"_141":7383},"f1c8c313e275",[7382],"3535ec2","Like, well you can go vote on it on the Trello board and we'll consider it.",{"_20":7385,"_90":271,"_272":7386,"_141":2462},"0b2585ffa90c",[],{"_20":7388,"_90":271,"_272":7389,"_141":7391},"56242a7d2356",[7390],"f2aa073","I think is a really valuable thing to have.",[7393,7395,7397],{"_20":7374,"_90":2478,"_2479":7394},"00:44:41.040",{"_20":7382,"_90":2478,"_2479":7396},"00:44:47.540",{"_20":7390,"_90":2478,"_2479":7398},"00:44:51.140",{"_20":7400,"_90":266,"_267":7401,"_275":7418,"_277":278},"dc5fe12399b0",[7402,7406,7410,7413],{"_20":7403,"_90":271,"_272":7404,"_141":2531},"1c8866d91b93",[7405,1150],"e72c9af",{"_20":7407,"_90":271,"_272":7408,"_141":7409},"dc6dd6883e6a",[7405]," What about you, James, on the Firebase side?",{"_20":7411,"_90":271,"_272":7412,"_141":2462},"4203198bdda3",[],{"_20":7414,"_90":271,"_272":7415,"_141":7417},"0ae6f2ab7008",[7416],"d5ec9fe","Like do you share any roadmap, or maybe that's changed now between the time you were independent or now at Google?",[7419,7421],{"_20":7405,"_90":2478,"_2479":7420},"00:44:53.220",{"_20":7416,"_90":2478,"_2479":7422},"00:44:55.060",{"_20":7424,"_90":266,"_267":7425,"_275":7450,"_277":278},"9b89282a7589",[7426,7430,7434,7437,7442,7445],{"_20":7427,"_90":271,"_272":7428,"_141":2885},"a33d2c6d3465",[7429,1150],"b59fb1a",{"_20":7431,"_90":271,"_272":7432,"_141":7433},"af1526cd9f91",[7429]," We used to, and we've stopped even before we joined Google, just because we'd missed dates and everyone get like",{"_20":7435,"_90":271,"_272":7436,"_141":2462},"8e7bd9418a41",[],{"_20":7438,"_90":271,"_272":7439,"_141":7441},"7b113646ae2e",[7440],"614381e","Yeah.",{"_20":7443,"_90":271,"_272":7444,"_141":2462},"3ab93d1df7fa",[],{"_20":7446,"_90":271,"_272":7447,"_141":7449},"7f3c16c34b49",[7448],"84f71c4","The product needed, or the direction we wanted to go.",[7451,7453,7455],{"_20":7429,"_90":2478,"_2479":7452},"00:45:02.680",{"_20":7440,"_90":2478,"_2479":7454},"00:45:14.160",{"_20":7448,"_90":2478,"_2479":7456},"00:45:23.120",{"_20":7458,"_90":266,"_267":7459,"_275":7473,"_277":278},"268ba579a583",[7460,7465,7468],{"_20":7461,"_90":271,"_272":7462,"_141":7464},"187745ec80cf",[7463],"e2888f7","So now we don't share anything, and it's sort of being some slow progression between like the thing we were building and the date, to just the thing we are building to now.",{"_20":7466,"_90":271,"_272":7467,"_141":2462},"5337a6287a12",[],{"_20":7469,"_90":271,"_272":7470,"_141":7472},"546076a4ff2e",[7471],"d331827","We stay pretty mum. If it's like blindingly obvious or it's like eighty percent done, then we'll share it.",[7474,7476],{"_20":7463,"_90":2478,"_2479":7475},"00:45:26.720",{"_20":7471,"_90":2478,"_2479":7477},"00:45:35.859",{"_20":7479,"_90":266,"_267":7480,"_275":7489,"_277":278},"de72c1e56a23",[7481,7485],{"_20":7482,"_90":271,"_272":7483,"_141":2531},"7a8866ee124e",[7484,1150],"c779a2f",{"_20":7486,"_90":271,"_272":7487,"_141":7488},"f98a16fcf66e",[7484]," Do you guys at Keen share any roadmap, or kind of what's coming next?",[7490],{"_20":7484,"_90":2478,"_2479":7491},"00:45:42.260",{"_20":7493,"_90":266,"_267":7494,"_275":7511,"_277":278},"76576c4013d5",[7495,7499,7503,7506],{"_20":7496,"_90":271,"_272":7497,"_141":3017},"9caa60b0bae1",[7498,1150],"f021e57",{"_20":7500,"_90":271,"_272":7501,"_141":7502},"f445030fb955",[7498]," No, we don't really very much at all.",{"_20":7504,"_90":271,"_272":7505,"_141":2462},"88ad3a768032",[],{"_20":7507,"_90":271,"_272":7508,"_141":7510},"e116eeedc969",[7509],"2dcfd83","I, when you asked the question, I was like, oh, I wonder why we don't.",[7512,7514],{"_20":7498,"_90":2478,"_2479":7513},"00:45:46.320",{"_20":7509,"_90":2478,"_2479":7515},"00:45:48.720",{"_20":7517,"_90":266,"_267":7518,"_275":7540,"_277":278},"a8db504b1c6d",[7519,7524,7527,7532,7535],{"_20":7520,"_90":271,"_272":7521,"_141":7523},"17233822ac02",[7522],"1a9d821","So for big things we're intentionally secretive, because we want to be able to get the biggest splash that we can.",{"_20":7525,"_90":271,"_272":7526,"_141":2462},"64fc2287a5c0",[],{"_20":7528,"_90":271,"_272":7529,"_141":7531},"69cf24431174",[7530],"43d6b3a","Most of those things are driven by how people use the platform for so many different use cases, but which of those, call it forty use cases, is this gonna help,",{"_20":7533,"_90":271,"_272":7534,"_141":2462},"c2a796c3fb3d",[],{"_20":7536,"_90":271,"_272":7537,"_141":7539},"0c73c0aa8f00",[7538],"0e4a4de","and is it about driving new customers, opening new markets? Is it about retaining and or expanding accounts that we have?",[7541,7543,7545],{"_20":7522,"_90":2478,"_2479":7542},"00:45:52.480",{"_20":7530,"_90":2478,"_2479":7544},"00:45:58.440",{"_20":7538,"_90":2478,"_2479":7546},"00:46:08.760",{"_20":7548,"_90":266,"_267":7549,"_275":7563,"_277":278},"c049a83c8e43",[7550,7555,7558],{"_20":7551,"_90":271,"_272":7552,"_141":7554},"f0a04e48b572",[7553],"efc5047","Or is it about keeping them from getting mad at us or something?",{"_20":7556,"_90":271,"_272":7557,"_141":2462},"28804eef769e",[],{"_20":7559,"_90":271,"_272":7560,"_141":7562},"1d2eacb4851c",[7561],"8dc040a","Or is it performance? So performance stuff we're very open about.",[7564,7566],{"_20":7553,"_90":2478,"_2479":7565},"00:46:14.800",{"_20":7561,"_90":2478,"_2479":7567},"00:46:17.920",{"_20":7569,"_90":266,"_267":7570,"_275":7584,"_277":278},"d489d77ad315",[7571,7576,7579],{"_20":7572,"_90":271,"_272":7573,"_141":7575},"a5ce9ac2471f",[7574],"ec5439f","That usually comes about based on some incident anyway.",{"_20":7577,"_90":271,"_272":7578,"_141":2462},"17d33b4421ec",[],{"_20":7580,"_90":271,"_272":7581,"_141":7583},"bcfa42eda48c",[7582],"237fc3a","It's like, oh, we had this thing get cloggy and we wrote a blog post about it and here's how we're gonna fix it, and like two days later we fix it.",[7585,7587],{"_20":7574,"_90":2478,"_2479":7586},"00:46:21.120",{"_20":7582,"_90":2478,"_2479":7588},"00:46:25.660",{"_20":7590,"_90":266,"_267":7591,"_275":7605,"_277":278},"d7ad45bc8324",[7592,7597,7600],{"_20":7593,"_90":271,"_272":7594,"_141":7596},"69d7d13719db",[7595],"f60f3e8","But we've been very secretive about it.",{"_20":7598,"_90":271,"_272":7599,"_141":2462},"2565466481c1",[],{"_20":7601,"_90":271,"_272":7602,"_141":7604},"0845daf5b734",[7603],"577276a","We do use the community a lot for their feedback.",[7606,7608],{"_20":7595,"_90":2478,"_2479":7607},"00:46:31.260",{"_20":7603,"_90":2478,"_2479":7609},"00:46:32.860",{"_20":7611,"_90":266,"_267":7612,"_275":7626,"_277":278},"aee313e6ef62",[7613,7618,7621],{"_20":7614,"_90":271,"_272":7615,"_141":7617},"ad0c0d850be9",[7616],"a581d94","So systematically I email developers. It would appear random, but I take targeted groups of developers in our base and just email them directly with a cryptic email from me that says, your advice.",{"_20":7619,"_90":271,"_272":7620,"_141":2462},"564984f1dae2",[],{"_20":7622,"_90":271,"_272":7623,"_141":7625},"6f1800570532",[7624],"2f4c7d4","If anybody here's a customer, you might have gotten one at some point.",[7627,7629],{"_20":7616,"_90":2478,"_2479":7628},"00:46:35.340",{"_20":7624,"_90":2478,"_2479":7630},"00:46:46.780",{"_20":7632,"_90":266,"_267":7633,"_275":7647,"_277":278},"5673be4f1478",[7634,7639,7642],{"_20":7635,"_90":271,"_272":7636,"_141":7638},"9f0672cef5e3",[7637],"638aeb9","And I just ask them if I can get them coffee or get on a Skype call or something, to talk about something.",{"_20":7640,"_90":271,"_272":7641,"_141":2462},"c2d3b64ae373",[],{"_20":7643,"_90":271,"_272":7644,"_141":7646},"38b0e9b285c6",[7645],"3d89b19","And that's where I do my sort of research.",[7648,7650],{"_20":7637,"_90":2478,"_2479":7649},"00:46:50.740",{"_20":7645,"_90":2478,"_2479":7651},"00:46:56.180",{"_20":7653,"_90":266,"_267":7654,"_275":7676,"_277":278},"572461e64b3e",[7655,7660,7663,7668,7671],{"_20":7656,"_90":271,"_272":7657,"_141":7659},"17d28e269c16",[7658],"aa27f01","If we made a feature like this, would that be useful?",{"_20":7661,"_90":271,"_272":7662,"_141":2462},"5ebb7335e0a5",[],{"_20":7664,"_90":271,"_272":7665,"_141":7667},"881022cf0205",[7666],"0631bbc","Would you use it? Would you pay for it?",{"_20":7669,"_90":271,"_272":7670,"_141":2462},"dc2d9447bb29",[],{"_20":7672,"_90":271,"_272":7673,"_141":7675},"4016141d6847",[7674],"0c583aa","How would you budget it? And then we have a customer advisory group for like under NDA.",[7677,7679,7681],{"_20":7658,"_90":2478,"_2479":7678},"00:47:05.720",{"_20":7666,"_90":2478,"_2479":7680},"00:47:07.720",{"_20":7674,"_90":2478,"_2479":7682},"00:47:09.320",{"_20":7684,"_90":266,"_267":7685,"_275":7707,"_277":278},"fdaf12447fbe",[7686,7691,7694,7699,7702],{"_20":7687,"_90":271,"_272":7688,"_141":7690},"55584b3e4f27",[7689],"da68f90","So we're super secretive I guess.",{"_20":7692,"_90":271,"_272":7693,"_141":2462},"7fd375019d6e",[],{"_20":7695,"_90":271,"_272":7696,"_141":7698},"b3ebabf25097",[7697],"30f7a7a","I was thinking, I don't even know if we ought to be.",{"_20":7700,"_90":271,"_272":7701,"_141":2462},"58d05b4f6766",[],{"_20":7703,"_90":271,"_272":7704,"_141":7706},"4a038a6edc31",[7705],"e579905","That Slack thing sounds really cool.",[7708,7710,7712],{"_20":7689,"_90":2478,"_2479":7709},"00:47:13.920",{"_20":7697,"_90":2478,"_2479":7711},"00:47:15.760",{"_20":7705,"_90":2478,"_2479":7713},"00:47:17.920",{"_20":7715,"_90":266,"_267":7716,"_275":7730,"_277":278},"a90ab57259bc",[7717,7722,7725],{"_20":7718,"_90":271,"_272":7719,"_141":7721},"58816a376542",[7720],"d22be6a","But we meet with them, our major customers, every quarter to talk about what's coming. And in some of those, occasionally I can get my co-founder to put a date on it.",{"_20":7723,"_90":271,"_272":7724,"_141":2462},"62b1fec709ec",[],{"_20":7726,"_90":271,"_272":7727,"_141":7729},"75292499b5ef",[7728],"923a84a","And we don't miss those, because they're very rare that we do that.",[7731,7733],{"_20":7720,"_90":2478,"_2479":7732},"00:47:19.520",{"_20":7728,"_90":2478,"_2479":7734},"00:47:27.520",{"_20":7736,"_90":266,"_267":7737,"_275":7742,"_277":368},"46bc07d107c9",[7738],{"_20":7739,"_90":271,"_272":7740,"_141":7741},"42830ba7d188",[],"Audience Q&A",[],{"_20":7744,"_90":266,"_267":7745,"_275":7762,"_277":278},"b59e92cdd570",[7746,7750,7754,7757],{"_20":7747,"_90":271,"_272":7748,"_141":2531},"cf08ac86ea3a",[7749,1150],"81330e1",{"_20":7751,"_90":271,"_272":7752,"_141":7753},"838c0ed2e055",[7749]," Awesome.",{"_20":7755,"_90":271,"_272":7756,"_141":2462},"626c3f138372",[],{"_20":7758,"_90":271,"_272":7759,"_141":7761},"ba73ecc7e7d1",[7760],"cddb9f0","Well, if you have any questions, I think Sam has a mic.",[7763,7765],{"_20":7749,"_90":2478,"_2479":7764},"00:47:30.960",{"_20":7760,"_90":2478,"_2479":7766},"00:47:32.000",{"_20":7768,"_90":266,"_267":7769,"_275":7778,"_277":278},"740db29d379c",[7770,7774],{"_20":7771,"_90":271,"_272":7772,"_141":2885},"1ec47d764ed6",[7773,1150],"d3c89c6",{"_20":7775,"_90":271,"_272":7776,"_141":7777},"b83975e78be6",[7773]," We measure Slack, Stack Overflow, our Google group, and then Twitter and Facebook, but those are kind of like second tier, when that's more marketing than community.",[7779],{"_20":7773,"_90":2478,"_2479":7780},"00:47:35.380",{"_20":7782,"_90":266,"_267":7783,"_275":7808,"_277":278},"3a8cdd42e5e2",[7784,7788,7792,7795,7800,7803],{"_20":7785,"_90":271,"_272":7786,"_141":2920},"5287a2e1299b",[7787,1150],"43d31ba",{"_20":7789,"_90":271,"_272":7790,"_141":7791},"a2ac9b1ae23f",[7787]," Yeah, we actually primarily measure our number of paying customers, and don't have much of a quantitative focus on community size.",{"_20":7793,"_90":271,"_272":7794,"_141":2462},"c0716c291959",[],{"_20":7796,"_90":271,"_272":7797,"_141":7799},"2ca2f76aac54",[7798],"0b20717","I think it depends on what stage your company is at, and kind of how much you pay attention to that.",{"_20":7801,"_90":271,"_272":7802,"_141":2462},"b393ee918abd",[],{"_20":7804,"_90":271,"_272":7805,"_141":7807},"f71d7475acc0",[7806],"13d8b89","For us there's still so much moving in terms of just customers coming on board, that we just haven't had the attention to pay to how many people are asking questions on Stack Overflow.",[7809,7811,7813],{"_20":7787,"_90":2478,"_2479":7810},"00:47:47.520",{"_20":7798,"_90":2478,"_2479":7812},"00:47:58.740",{"_20":7806,"_90":2478,"_2479":7814},"00:48:05.040",{"_20":7816,"_90":266,"_267":7817,"_275":7842,"_277":278},"38228b3f7e48",[7818,7822,7826,7829,7834,7837],{"_20":7819,"_90":271,"_272":7820,"_141":3017},"8f85014b8529",[7821,1150],"ea3beb6",{"_20":7823,"_90":271,"_272":7824,"_141":7825},"ad29253c4686",[7821]," So it depends what we mean by measure.",{"_20":7827,"_90":271,"_272":7828,"_141":2462},"b6e4f114cc30",[],{"_20":7830,"_90":271,"_272":7831,"_141":7833},"398b31e71468",[7832],"ad3dec4","We have this historical data API that we get to use for free.",{"_20":7835,"_90":271,"_272":7836,"_141":2462},"0c38354bfaf7",[],{"_20":7838,"_90":271,"_272":7839,"_141":7841},"a187c29d2c8f",[7840],"3270323","So we measure everything you might possibly imagine on this stuff.",[7843,7845,7847],{"_20":7821,"_90":2478,"_2479":7844},"00:48:16.260",{"_20":7832,"_90":2478,"_2479":7846},"00:48:17.940",{"_20":7840,"_90":2478,"_2479":7848},"00:48:21.140",{"_20":7850,"_90":266,"_267":7851,"_275":7873,"_277":278},"1aa9ef7970e5",[7852,7857,7860,7865,7868],{"_20":7853,"_90":271,"_272":7854,"_141":7856},"093ed5eb6b36",[7855],"a59f3ba","But another way to answer the question is, what do we use, or what do I use?",{"_20":7858,"_90":271,"_272":7859,"_141":2462},"1764df03b3f6",[],{"_20":7861,"_90":271,"_272":7862,"_141":7864},"c8635de14f28",[7863],"b54d1e4","We look at Stack Overflow, we look at support ticket volume.",{"_20":7866,"_90":271,"_272":7867,"_141":2462},"63906727cabb",[],{"_20":7869,"_90":271,"_272":7870,"_141":7872},"115eb443c954",[7871],"4e3b889","We have a new, in our new triage we just rolled this out like two weeks ago, there's a new Intercom queue for, this would be a good Stack Overflow question, so our community team can jump in there. Send, after they're happy, send them a note that says, hey, could you put this on Stack Overflow?",[7874,7876,7878],{"_20":7855,"_90":2478,"_2479":7875},"00:48:24.340",{"_20":7863,"_90":2478,"_2479":7877},"00:48:29.660",{"_20":7871,"_90":2478,"_2479":7879},"00:48:34.940",{"_20":7881,"_90":266,"_267":7882,"_275":7896,"_277":278},"0f804d5d428c",[7883,7888,7891],{"_20":7884,"_90":271,"_272":7885,"_141":7887},"a3cd765bdba2",[7886],"d8ab082","We'll answer it, and more people will get value out of it.",{"_20":7889,"_90":271,"_272":7890,"_141":2462},"a011908a57c0",[],{"_20":7892,"_90":271,"_272":7893,"_141":7895},"3c7242f9a5d9",[7894],"1ee8e0d","That's one of the major things.",[7897,7899],{"_20":7886,"_90":2478,"_2479":7898},"00:48:46.100",{"_20":7894,"_90":2478,"_2479":7900},"00:48:48.820",{"_20":7902,"_90":266,"_267":7903,"_275":7925,"_277":278},"fca092d243f4",[7904,7909,7912,7917,7920],{"_20":7905,"_90":271,"_272":7906,"_141":7908},"66b218e75ddc",[7907],"e2431da","That connects to get it kind of two streams.",{"_20":7910,"_90":271,"_272":7911,"_141":2462},"fe9bc1b89f9c",[],{"_20":7913,"_90":271,"_272":7914,"_141":7916},"4355f50d9545",[7915],"62ba426","It's amazing, because then the next time they Google it, so every error message qualifies.",{"_20":7918,"_90":271,"_272":7919,"_141":2462},"d50b055efb02",[],{"_20":7921,"_90":271,"_272":7922,"_141":7924},"b16aa52eed88",[7923],"26cb86c","Like that way when people Google it, they find it on a Stack Overflow.",[7926,7928,7930],{"_20":7907,"_90":2478,"_2479":7927},"00:48:50.760",{"_20":7915,"_90":2478,"_2479":7929},"00:48:52.600",{"_20":7923,"_90":2478,"_2479":7931},"00:48:55.480",{"_20":7933,"_90":266,"_267":7934,"_275":7948,"_277":278},"e1cdfadb1797",[7935,7940,7943],{"_20":7936,"_90":271,"_272":7937,"_141":7939},"d3ab68a02d1f",[7938],"86dcd63","So that's kind of an example of maybe leading something that's already kind of organic.",{"_20":7941,"_90":271,"_272":7942,"_141":2462},"da0dbfe7076e",[],{"_20":7944,"_90":271,"_272":7945,"_141":7947},"c0492b21710e",[7946],"0531502","So we measure all that stuff.",[7949,7951],{"_20":7938,"_90":2478,"_2479":7950},"00:48:58.040",{"_20":7946,"_90":2478,"_2479":7952},"00:49:02.920",{"_20":7954,"_90":266,"_267":7955,"_275":7977,"_277":278},"84ba97e3b2cb",[7956,7961,7964,7969,7972],{"_20":7957,"_90":271,"_272":7958,"_141":7960},"b96b024e4ddf",[7959],"d0bc857","But engagement's tricky. The thing we look at the most is our product qualification stuff.",{"_20":7962,"_90":271,"_272":7963,"_141":2462},"3e77893a0f0a",[],{"_20":7965,"_90":271,"_272":7966,"_141":7968},"a909164d3dec",[7967],"dda200f","So what API features are they using?",{"_20":7970,"_90":271,"_272":7971,"_141":2462},"4f8dfe90a855",[],{"_20":7973,"_90":271,"_272":7974,"_141":7976},"9be6946ac797",[7975],"6d6e8c6","What SDKs are they using? What is used, and what have they tested and not engaged with?",[7978,7980,7982],{"_20":7959,"_90":2478,"_2479":7979},"00:49:04.440",{"_20":7967,"_90":2478,"_2479":7981},"00:49:09.020",{"_20":7975,"_90":2478,"_2479":7983},"00:49:11.340",{"_20":7985,"_90":266,"_267":7986,"_275":8000,"_277":1728},"4e7d03d528c0",[7987,7992,7995],{"_20":7988,"_90":271,"_272":7989,"_141":7991},"93dd1fc81085",[7990],"5e87c52","It always at the end of the day comes down to actually using the product.",{"_20":7993,"_90":271,"_272":7994,"_141":2462},"fb9238c71f03",[],{"_20":7996,"_90":271,"_272":7997,"_141":7999},"7abf4a5cbe1c",[7998],"4809e89","So that's the main driver for us.",[8001,8003],{"_20":7990,"_90":2478,"_2479":8002},"00:49:17.460",{"_20":7998,"_90":2478,"_2479":8004},"00:49:20.500",{"_20":8006,"_90":266,"_267":8007,"_275":8032,"_277":278},"f1e7c365d9ee",[8008,8012,8016,8019,8024,8027],{"_20":8009,"_90":271,"_272":8010,"_141":2531},"86d32fe55822",[8011,1150],"5550c5d",{"_20":8013,"_90":271,"_272":8014,"_141":8015},"90564b4c3d51",[8011]," Yeah, it's pretty similar for us at Stripe, we have kind of the same places we monitor closely.",{"_20":8017,"_90":271,"_272":8018,"_141":2462},"1d69ff4ea8be",[],{"_20":8020,"_90":271,"_272":8021,"_141":8023},"3de0001d8841",[8022],"e9a66c9","We also have a team of support engineers who contribute to Stack Overflow fairly heavily, and so we make sure that every question over there gets answered pretty fast.",{"_20":8025,"_90":271,"_272":8026,"_141":2462},"910d1ceb8c64",[],{"_20":8028,"_90":271,"_272":8029,"_141":8031},"05036de47765",[8030],"9837555","And all our API libraries are also open source, so we try to encourage pull requests and community contributions to those.",[8033,8035,8037],{"_20":8011,"_90":2478,"_2479":8034},"00:49:23.380",{"_20":8022,"_90":2478,"_2479":8036},"00:49:28.859",{"_20":8030,"_90":2478,"_2479":8038},"00:49:37.520",{"_20":8040,"_90":266,"_267":8041,"_275":8058,"_277":278},"bd2ba87a7f25",[8042,8046,8050,8053],{"_20":8043,"_90":271,"_272":8044,"_141":2885},"22f6f699e6d0",[8045,1150],"a6029b4",{"_20":8047,"_90":271,"_272":8048,"_141":8049},"96e8f5b8748a",[8045]," I think it's hugely important. I think ensuring that your community members feel ownership over the product is",{"_20":8051,"_90":271,"_272":8052,"_141":2462},"1a9b87dc8a28",[],{"_20":8054,"_90":271,"_272":8055,"_141":8057},"707d536fa5db",[8056],"ec19776","the best way you can do that, and how maybe you should think about it philosophically.",[8059,8061],{"_20":8045,"_90":2478,"_2479":8060},"00:49:45.520",{"_20":8056,"_90":2478,"_2479":8062},"00:49:55.200",{"_20":8064,"_90":266,"_267":8065,"_275":8087,"_277":278},"b7bb4e8a193e",[8066,8071,8074,8079,8082],{"_20":8067,"_90":271,"_272":8068,"_141":8070},"f5d1fa86928b",[8069],"aa18ff2","So one of the things that we did was, I think we must have been about like forty thousand developers or so, thirty, forty thousand developers to registered accounts,",{"_20":8072,"_90":271,"_272":8073,"_141":2462},"490fcb2b7594",[],{"_20":8075,"_90":271,"_272":8076,"_141":8078},"bcc2cc9cda42",[8077],"f6058ac","we spent like ten grand and my co-founder thought I was insane at the time for doing this.",{"_20":8080,"_90":271,"_272":8081,"_141":2462},"4842bfe1ce66",[],{"_20":8083,"_90":271,"_272":8084,"_141":8086},"e6c55e6eb26f",[8085],"f812f4c","We spent 10 grand and we got everyone a hoodie, a Firebase hoodie with their user number embroidered, for like the first 150 developers.",[8088,8090,8092],{"_20":8069,"_90":2478,"_2479":8089},"00:50:01.060",{"_20":8077,"_90":2478,"_2479":8091},"00:50:13.099",{"_20":8085,"_90":2478,"_2479":8093},"00:50:17.900",{"_20":8095,"_90":266,"_267":8096,"_275":8110,"_277":1728},"5883db891ada",[8097,8102,8105],{"_20":8098,"_90":271,"_272":8099,"_141":8101},"6e0d3324ecf5",[8100],"fb2f11b","And so we sent this out to our first hundred and fifty users, and they loved it and they would tweet about it, and I still see them walking around wearing it to this day.",{"_20":8103,"_90":271,"_272":8104,"_141":2462},"a9c637c341f3",[],{"_20":8106,"_90":271,"_272":8107,"_141":8109},"1e7d2b95a1da",[8108],"74dac88","And they've sort of become these genuine advocates.",[8111,8113],{"_20":8100,"_90":2478,"_2479":8112},"00:50:26.520",{"_20":8108,"_90":2478,"_2479":8114},"00:50:36.059",{"_20":8116,"_90":266,"_267":8117,"_275":8123,"_277":278},"a88b762a0351",[8118],{"_20":8119,"_90":271,"_272":8120,"_141":8122},"3fca3aaeba3a",[8121],"0fdda17","And we've done that for like along a number of different dimensions, not just hoodies. That's one way I would think about how to turn community members into advocates.",[8124],{"_20":8121,"_90":2478,"_2479":8125},"00:50:38.460",{"_20":8127,"_90":266,"_267":8128,"_275":8153,"_277":278},"c2301ca5956b",[8129,8133,8137,8140,8145,8148],{"_20":8130,"_90":271,"_272":8131,"_141":3017},"87ad35b119c3",[8132,1150],"9627e0b",{"_20":8134,"_90":271,"_272":8135,"_141":8136},"eb86b3782253",[8132]," Well the care packages that James mentioned are still an ongoing kind of thing, so we send those. We have an Easter egg on our API, you have to kind of learn various parts of it to use",{"_20":8138,"_90":271,"_272":8139,"_141":2462},"cae0df145706",[],{"_20":8141,"_90":271,"_272":8142,"_141":8144},"6e22cb5b7798",[8143],"9290bec","to request a t-shirt, and then we send out a care package.",{"_20":8146,"_90":271,"_272":8147,"_141":2462},"87175677ee80",[],{"_20":8149,"_90":271,"_272":8150,"_141":8152},"1226911ab19d",[8151],"1a0213e","We also do it when somebody files an issue on GitHub, or responds to another customer in Slack or on Stack Overflow with a reasonable answer.",[8154,8156,8158],{"_20":8132,"_90":2478,"_2479":8155},"00:50:48.000",{"_20":8143,"_90":2478,"_2479":8157},"00:50:56.620",{"_20":8151,"_90":2478,"_2479":8159},"00:51:01.580",{"_20":8161,"_90":266,"_267":8162,"_275":8176,"_277":1728},"bfbc9c29ec68",[8163,8168,8171],{"_20":8164,"_90":271,"_272":8165,"_141":8167},"213ea156d9c9",[8166],"dae8728","And then they almost invariably take pictures of them, tweet 'em, put 'em on Instagram or Twitter or something, and we share those.",{"_20":8169,"_90":271,"_272":8170,"_141":2462},"e2e60c0eb71f",[],{"_20":8172,"_90":271,"_272":8173,"_141":8175},"98dc2a8a4d70",[8174],"7ffd7fe","It's less about turning people into advocates, but it's when they do become advocates, amplifying their signal so other people see the example.",[8177,8179],{"_20":8166,"_90":2478,"_2479":8178},"00:51:09.260",{"_20":8174,"_90":2478,"_2479":8180},"00:51:15.740",{"_20":8182,"_90":266,"_267":8183,"_275":8189,"_277":278},"71428a797c4c",[8184],{"_20":8185,"_90":271,"_272":8186,"_141":8188},"d5d55bbc4b92",[8187],"6e70e50","And that's pretty much all we do.",[8190],{"_20":8187,"_90":2478,"_2479":8191},"00:51:22.859",{"_20":8193,"_90":266,"_267":8194,"_275":8211,"_277":278},"17258a323c6c",[8195,8199,8203,8206],{"_20":8196,"_90":271,"_272":8197,"_141":2885},"8a1b85f8ca4b",[8198,1150],"5cd4e02",{"_20":8200,"_90":271,"_272":8201,"_141":8202},"ae8c967c9bf7",[8198]," A personal thank you. Like reaching out unprompted to one of your community members and saying, hey, thanks for doing this, or hey, I really like what you built on us.",{"_20":8204,"_90":271,"_272":8205,"_141":2462},"cec11d92b33b",[],{"_20":8207,"_90":271,"_272":8208,"_141":8210},"503adf16ecd7",[8209],"c0eb510","It goes so far.",[8212,8214],{"_20":8198,"_90":2478,"_2479":8213},"00:51:27.260",{"_20":8209,"_90":2478,"_2479":8215},"00:51:35.420",{"_20":8217,"_90":266,"_267":8218,"_275":8248,"_277":278},"19f96d908f1e",[8219,8224,8227,8232,8235,8240,8243],{"_20":8220,"_90":271,"_272":8221,"_141":8223},"05c6b4263e14",[8222],"39111d4","Like a little handwritten note, something like, or just even an email.",{"_20":8225,"_90":271,"_272":8226,"_141":2462},"b92082240196",[],{"_20":8228,"_90":271,"_272":8229,"_141":8231},"5051f85d9ef9",[8230],"2bea7be","Yeah. Like if you don't have their address.",{"_20":8233,"_90":271,"_272":8234,"_141":2462},"15672e583dc1",[],{"_20":8236,"_90":271,"_272":8237,"_141":8239},"e74423651491",[8238],"1e312e1","It's one of those sort of unscalable things that we were talking about earlier.",{"_20":8241,"_90":271,"_272":8242,"_141":2462},"559f9c44b69a",[],{"_20":8244,"_90":271,"_272":8245,"_141":8247},"a267199317dd",[8246],"de8dca3","But it makes all the difference.",[8249,8251,8253,8255],{"_20":8222,"_90":2478,"_2479":8250},"00:51:37.320",{"_20":8230,"_90":2478,"_2479":8252},"00:51:40.840",{"_20":8238,"_90":2478,"_2479":8254},"00:51:42.760",{"_20":8246,"_90":2478,"_2479":8256},"00:51:46.520",{"_20":8258,"_90":266,"_267":8259,"_275":8268,"_277":278},"e2b26b1bf77b",[8260,8264],{"_20":8261,"_90":271,"_272":8262,"_141":2531},"67e70ed93b7f",[8263,1150],"d0052c0",{"_20":8265,"_90":271,"_272":8266,"_141":8267},"1b10bf5a6928",[8263]," Yeah, and I think it also goes back to the fact that when developers are passionate about tools and products in general, they will tell their friends. And that's the best way to get a community started, right?",[8269],{"_20":8263,"_90":2478,"_2479":8270},"00:51:48.800",{"_20":8272,"_90":266,"_267":8273,"_275":8287,"_277":278},"4b8da0a1b1c0",[8274,8279,8282],{"_20":8275,"_90":271,"_272":8276,"_141":8278},"fbfc8cd52db8",[8277],"a0d4c65","Like if they're excited by your product, and if they really want to use it, and if they have this wow effect when they start using it, then they will immediately tell their friends, and then fortunately you can maybe turn",{"_20":8280,"_90":271,"_272":8281,"_141":2462},"2c387fd75921",[],{"_20":8283,"_90":271,"_272":8284,"_141":8286},"2ca6c13bab2b",[8285],"9a4ad5e","a bunch of them into advocates.",[8288,8290],{"_20":8277,"_90":2478,"_2479":8289},"00:51:58.940",{"_20":8285,"_90":2478,"_2479":8291},"00:52:10.160",{"_20":8293,"_90":266,"_267":8294,"_275":8319,"_277":278},"48d9a493fc34",[8295,8299,8303,8306,8311,8314],{"_20":8296,"_90":271,"_272":8297,"_141":2885},"8a32d38754dd",[8298,1150],"bfcbee5",{"_20":8300,"_90":271,"_272":8301,"_141":8302},"5aa84dee503c",[8298]," One of the biggest opportunities to create an advocate as well is when somebody's had a bad experience with your product. So if somebody comes in through support, or writes like a medium post on",{"_20":8304,"_90":271,"_272":8305,"_141":2462},"0b26c0107569",[],{"_20":8307,"_90":271,"_272":8308,"_141":8310},"691387a2ae91",[8309],"7afc0ef","why your product is terrible, like reaching out to them and diffusing the situation, whether it's through support channel, or if they've written something and",{"_20":8312,"_90":271,"_272":8313,"_141":2462},"ee7428182d17",[],{"_20":8315,"_90":271,"_272":8316,"_141":8318},"c866aa321f16",[8317],"9c7d841","saying, hey, I'm sorry, we messed up, here's what we're doing to get better.",[8320,8322,8324],{"_20":8298,"_90":2478,"_2479":8321},"00:52:12.000",{"_20":8309,"_90":2478,"_2479":8323},"00:52:23.460",{"_20":8317,"_90":2478,"_2479":8325},"00:52:34.920",{"_20":8327,"_90":266,"_267":8328,"_275":8334,"_277":278},"90d2d8cada2c",[8329],{"_20":8330,"_90":271,"_272":8331,"_141":8333},"5a95989f2906",[8332],"f0eb865","I actually had in the early days, and I still have a couple of them, but people who have written blog posts and I've marked like, hey we'll have this feature that will solve this, and I'll go and follow up with them.",[8335],{"_20":8332,"_90":2478,"_2479":8336},"00:52:41.440",{"_20":8338,"_90":266,"_267":8339,"_275":8356,"_277":278},"6562d66c94e3",[8340,8344,8348,8351],{"_20":8341,"_90":271,"_272":8342,"_141":2920},"cecfbbff681c",[8343,1150],"01aa2d2",{"_20":8345,"_90":271,"_272":8346,"_141":8347},"11a7eecfc00c",[8343]," We talk to folks a lot on Twitter actually.",{"_20":8349,"_90":271,"_272":8350,"_141":2462},"06e815e167de",[],{"_20":8352,"_90":271,"_272":8353,"_141":8355},"158881e61f28",[8354],"a8d954f","My co-founder is kind of a genius at diffusing bad feelings with funny GIFs.",[8357,8359],{"_20":8343,"_90":2478,"_2479":8358},"00:52:53.599",{"_20":8354,"_90":2478,"_2479":8360},"00:52:56.400",{"_20":8362,"_90":266,"_267":8363,"_275":8377,"_277":278},"79a113243d4d",[8364,8369,8372],{"_20":8365,"_90":271,"_272":8366,"_141":8368},"f73d80d49b92",[8367],"a63d8cf","Highly recommended. Get familiar with Giphy, and if someone's having a bad day and is taking it out on your product, you could probably fix it with some GIFs.",{"_20":8370,"_90":271,"_272":8371,"_141":2462},"a63fc1f7f81b",[],{"_20":8373,"_90":271,"_272":8374,"_141":8376},"0b7836d0ca52",[8375],"2c32bfc","We also send people stickers, and for people that are particularly, have built something cool, we'll send them t-shirts.",[8378,8380],{"_20":8367,"_90":2478,"_2479":8379},"00:53:02.440",{"_20":8375,"_90":2478,"_2479":8381},"00:53:12.740",{"_20":8383,"_90":266,"_267":8384,"_275":8398,"_277":278},"73fa14890f70",[8385,8390,8393],{"_20":8386,"_90":271,"_272":8387,"_141":8389},"1da9fc79db71",[8388],"5d9466c","That's probably the biggest things. We also have had a couple folks who have kind of gone above and beyond, and we've kind of",{"_20":8391,"_90":271,"_272":8392,"_141":2462},"b273ee874754",[],{"_20":8394,"_90":271,"_272":8395,"_141":8397},"a0fd1751bcd6",[8396],"a8e8b8f","deputized them and given them official roles in the community.",[8399,8401],{"_20":8388,"_90":2478,"_2479":8400},"00:53:22.599",{"_20":8396,"_90":2478,"_2479":8402},"00:53:31.560",{"_20":8404,"_90":266,"_267":8405,"_275":8427,"_277":278},"3f437e862e83",[8406,8411,8414,8419,8422],{"_20":8407,"_90":271,"_272":8408,"_141":8410},"32496c6edc19",[8409],"f61e024","Like there's this one who was like a kid in the Midwest who was helping out a lot with us organizing our GitHub issues, and so we kind of",{"_20":8412,"_90":271,"_272":8413,"_141":2462},"ca4ebd1b7bbe",[],{"_20":8415,"_90":271,"_272":8416,"_141":8418},"937ad8ad5971",[8417],"e9b7abf","gave him the official blessing, kind of gave him a commit bit and allowed 'em to do that officially.",{"_20":8420,"_90":271,"_272":8421,"_141":2462},"fc91eb821964",[],{"_20":8423,"_90":271,"_272":8424,"_141":8426},"b8ed90bebee2",[8425],"72bd67b","And I think that kind of giving people that recognition is really important, and it's pretty easy to do, especially if people are doing free work for you.",[8428,8430,8432],{"_20":8409,"_90":2478,"_2479":8429},"00:53:34.760",{"_20":8417,"_90":2478,"_2479":8431},"00:53:44.640",{"_20":8425,"_90":2478,"_2479":8433},"00:53:50.079",{"_20":8435,"_90":266,"_267":8436,"_275":8461,"_277":278},"394a74975ea2",[8437,8441,8445,8448,8453,8456],{"_20":8438,"_90":271,"_272":8439,"_141":3017},"5005aed04754",[8440,1150],"a99518e",{"_20":8442,"_90":271,"_272":8443,"_141":8444},"c58f64aae95d",[8440]," So we've seen that. Absolutely that.",{"_20":8446,"_90":271,"_272":8447,"_141":2462},"6f00d832df08",[],{"_20":8449,"_90":271,"_272":8450,"_141":8452},"01e66dba9742",[8451],"5731926","One of the things that we've started implementing over the last even three or four months, that we started figuring out last year, was",{"_20":8454,"_90":271,"_272":8455,"_141":2462},"3f9a42be4b91",[],{"_20":8457,"_90":271,"_272":8458,"_141":8460},"f243af6f3bdc",[8459],"00dc4d0","you can get a little bit more segmented when you dive into the framework level instead of the language level.",[8462,8464,8466],{"_20":8440,"_90":2478,"_2479":8463},"00:53:59.380",{"_20":8451,"_90":2478,"_2479":8465},"00:54:02.980",{"_20":8459,"_90":2478,"_2479":8467},"00:54:10.520",{"_20":8469,"_90":266,"_267":8470,"_275":8492,"_277":278},"d2e5e3c7dd0b",[8471,8476,8479,8484,8487],{"_20":8472,"_90":271,"_272":8473,"_141":8475},"c862b29a3b7b",[8474],"dfb08b5","So yeah, I mean, I'm an analytics geek, so I'm not gonna, forgive me, I'll digress for a second.",{"_20":8477,"_90":271,"_272":8478,"_141":2462},"0dd885b1821e",[],{"_20":8480,"_90":271,"_272":8481,"_141":8483},"40edf78dc1cf",[8482],"6788e23","Like you can't optimize for steps two and three in some funnel",{"_20":8485,"_90":271,"_272":8486,"_141":2462},"be25caf8162f",[],{"_20":8488,"_90":271,"_272":8489,"_141":8491},"c2bdcfa3151a",[8490],"74d6c06","in isolation, because if you're just saying like, you said we get more adoption in this group, and maybe that's a growth campaign or a community evangelism investment or an SDK level investment.",[8493,8495,8497],{"_20":8474,"_90":2478,"_2479":8494},"00:54:15.960",{"_20":8482,"_90":2478,"_2479":8496},"00:54:24.840",{"_20":8490,"_90":2478,"_2479":8498},"00:54:28.799",{"_20":8500,"_90":266,"_267":8501,"_275":8515,"_277":278},"a0a93d58a735",[8502,8507,8510],{"_20":8503,"_90":271,"_272":8504,"_141":8506},"f113badf576b",[8505],"b98ca98","And this one's getting better at cost per lead, so let's juice that one.",{"_20":8508,"_90":271,"_272":8509,"_141":2462},"86e675a8726e",[],{"_20":8511,"_90":271,"_272":8512,"_141":8514},"6d3565cfa8b0",[8513],"37f5909","Like you kind of have to see the whole thing.",[8516,8518],{"_20":8505,"_90":2478,"_2479":8517},"00:54:41.260",{"_20":8513,"_90":2478,"_2479":8519},"00:54:44.460",{"_20":8521,"_90":266,"_267":8522,"_275":8544,"_277":278},"f0e768353e44",[8523,8528,8531,8536,8539],{"_20":8524,"_90":271,"_272":8525,"_141":8527},"0b75f29d2a91",[8526],"d9a4d42","And in the absence of the data, if your adoption cycle is three to nine months like ours,",{"_20":8529,"_90":271,"_272":8530,"_141":2462},"4307064acf1a",[],{"_20":8532,"_90":271,"_272":8533,"_141":8535},"a557991a106d",[8534],"3d53f33","we can make some assumptions.",{"_20":8537,"_90":271,"_272":8538,"_141":2462},"a2c79c6ffc95",[],{"_20":8540,"_90":271,"_272":8541,"_141":8543},"368493c4e255",[8542],"4970edc","So I mentioned Drupal earlier because we're doing a bunch of new stuff in Drupal over the next couple of months, and we've always had decent traction in PHP.",[8545,8547,8549],{"_20":8526,"_90":2478,"_2479":8546},"00:54:46.940",{"_20":8534,"_90":2478,"_2479":8548},"00:54:52.720",{"_20":8542,"_90":2478,"_2479":8550},"00:54:54.160",{"_20":8552,"_90":266,"_267":8553,"_275":8567,"_277":278},"6621431b853f",[8554,8559,8562],{"_20":8555,"_90":271,"_272":8556,"_141":8558},"570d6cf721b9",[8557],"09288c1","Turns out Drupal is a community within the PHP developer community that has its own specific and unique needs, but also there aren't a lot of hobbyists just using Drupal to automate their house or whatever.",{"_20":8560,"_90":271,"_272":8561,"_141":2462},"7e16fa390807",[],{"_20":8563,"_90":271,"_272":8564,"_141":8566},"75bc6aee7306",[8565],"b50a314","It's pretty much a professional framework in professional environments.",[8568,8570],{"_20":8557,"_90":2478,"_2479":8569},"00:55:01.520",{"_20":8565,"_90":2478,"_2479":8571},"00:55:13.520",{"_20":8573,"_90":266,"_267":8574,"_275":8588,"_277":278},"247305d15503",[8575,8580,8583],{"_20":8576,"_90":271,"_272":8577,"_141":8579},"e10970e15cdd",[8578],"e9f5b07","So in theory, if we could get the adoption rates to be somewhat similar or even half, everyone's working on something that they're gainfully employed to work on, as opposed to Raspberry Pi analytics or whatever.",{"_20":8581,"_90":271,"_272":8582,"_141":2462},"f72dbf2c604b",[],{"_20":8584,"_90":271,"_272":8585,"_141":8587},"513458f87c71",[8586],"4319342","I mean that stuff's all great and that's all cool, but we see the same patterns, and we're very deliberate about those investments.",[8589,8591],{"_20":8578,"_90":2478,"_2479":8590},"00:55:18.020",{"_20":8586,"_90":2478,"_2479":8592},"00:55:29.359",{"_20":8594,"_90":266,"_267":8595,"_275":8612,"_277":278},"5f91c55d1a63",[8596,8600,8604,8607],{"_20":8597,"_90":271,"_272":8598,"_141":2885},"48d03320d96d",[8599,1150],"ff817d8",{"_20":8601,"_90":271,"_272":8602,"_141":8603},"bc3dc9fd0aed",[8599]," We ended up breaking out a bunch of our online communities by framework, and ended up",{"_20":8605,"_90":271,"_272":8606,"_141":2462},"4f3a26a83d9c",[],{"_20":8608,"_90":271,"_272":8609,"_141":8611},"4a4ef32b1c11",[8610],"9d44b92","retracting it and folding it back into one, because it was just too much management overhead.",[8613,8615],{"_20":8599,"_90":2478,"_2479":8614},"00:55:36.920",{"_20":8610,"_90":2478,"_2479":8616},"00:55:44.440",{"_20":8618,"_90":266,"_267":8619,"_275":8633,"_277":278},"7ffb087330c0",[8620,8625,8628],{"_20":8621,"_90":271,"_272":8622,"_141":8624},"19ec33ef4be7",[8623],"27c323a","So we'll go and do specific events for iOS developers at like RWDevcon or whatever.",{"_20":8626,"_90":271,"_272":8627,"_141":2462},"30fcd1011c19",[],{"_20":8629,"_90":271,"_272":8630,"_141":8632},"64c01b0bd3c5",[8631],"e1fa643","And so like the offline stuff will segment by community, but the online stuff, it's all just munged together.",[8634,8636],{"_20":8623,"_90":2478,"_2479":8635},"00:55:49.200",{"_20":8631,"_90":2478,"_2479":8637},"00:55:56.560",{"_20":8639,"_90":266,"_267":8640,"_275":8665,"_277":278},"f246f3559d14",[8641,8645,8649,8652,8657,8660],{"_20":8642,"_90":271,"_272":8643,"_141":2531},"c04b9145f943",[8644,1150],"8a08c83",{"_20":8646,"_90":271,"_272":8647,"_141":8648},"77e102a285f7",[8644]," Alright, so to wrap up, maybe one last thought you would share for all the audience here.",{"_20":8650,"_90":271,"_272":8651,"_141":2462},"a1bf82a20c36",[],{"_20":8653,"_90":271,"_272":8654,"_141":8656},"52bdf5e46ccf",[8655],"be530a7","What is the one most important thing you would tell anyone to build a strong developer community starting tomorrow?",{"_20":8658,"_90":271,"_272":8659,"_141":2462},"1942d4246a85",[],{"_20":8661,"_90":271,"_272":8662,"_141":8664},"86cf5d553305",[8663],"2d09e4a","What should they implement first, or think about first?",[8666,8668,8670],{"_20":8644,"_90":2478,"_2479":8667},"00:56:03.340",{"_20":8655,"_90":2478,"_2479":8669},"00:56:08.500",{"_20":8663,"_90":2478,"_2479":8671},"00:56:16.100",{"_20":8673,"_90":266,"_267":8674,"_275":8691,"_277":278},"847bd36fb68f",[8675,8679,8683,8686],{"_20":8676,"_90":271,"_272":8677,"_141":3017},"b7e62e75a754",[8678,1150],"60b059a",{"_20":8680,"_90":271,"_272":8681,"_141":8682},"79ae0518c7ca",[8678]," It's all about documentation.",{"_20":8684,"_90":271,"_272":8685,"_141":2462},"bc1194dfc079",[],{"_20":8687,"_90":271,"_272":8688,"_141":8690},"a83123cacdaf",[8689],"0d2e064","The most leverage for us has always been in that.",[8692,8694],{"_20":8678,"_90":2478,"_2479":8693},"00:56:20.440",{"_20":8689,"_90":2478,"_2479":8695},"00:56:24.200",{"_20":8697,"_90":266,"_267":8698,"_275":8715,"_277":278},"4bd25f068c5a",[8699,8703,8707,8710],{"_20":8700,"_90":271,"_272":8701,"_141":2920},"e64c46f2f1d3",[8702,1150],"59da098",{"_20":8704,"_90":271,"_272":8705,"_141":8706},"75d2cc9bea6f",[8702]," Anything that's not the secret sauce, you should consider releasing it as open source.",{"_20":8708,"_90":271,"_272":8709,"_141":2462},"3a61b469a67f",[],{"_20":8711,"_90":271,"_272":8712,"_141":8714},"431ef5edc041",[8713],"7bb5a36","Someone will find it interesting.",[8716,8718],{"_20":8702,"_90":2478,"_2479":8717},"00:56:28.520",{"_20":8713,"_90":2478,"_2479":8719},"00:56:33.200",{"_20":8721,"_90":266,"_267":8722,"_275":8739,"_277":278},"fb0d2a40f35c",[8723,8727,8731,8734],{"_20":8724,"_90":271,"_272":8725,"_141":2885},"30c2681c8dcb",[8726,1150],"c09ac62",{"_20":8728,"_90":271,"_272":8729,"_141":8730},"3dfbee4516f4",[8726]," Your company and your organization probably has a culture.",{"_20":8732,"_90":271,"_272":8733,"_141":2462},"d962ad62f8c1",[],{"_20":8735,"_90":271,"_272":8736,"_141":8738},"c4e66f69903f",[8737],"703dfee","The group of people that you sit in a room with every day building your product.",[8740,8742],{"_20":8726,"_90":2478,"_2479":8741},"00:56:36.000",{"_20":8737,"_90":2478,"_2479":8743},"00:56:41.500",{"_20":8745,"_90":266,"_267":8746,"_275":8760,"_277":1728},"1b2f1de62161",[8747,8752,8755],{"_20":8748,"_90":271,"_272":8749,"_141":8751},"065e9061627c",[8750],"ce4186e","You have a way of talking to each other, you have a way of interacting, going to lunch, whatever it is. Just take that and project it to the world.",{"_20":8753,"_90":271,"_272":8754,"_141":2462},"b377f7d444ac",[],{"_20":8756,"_90":271,"_272":8757,"_141":8759},"e0b5672257f6",[8758],"c19ea65","Be you, be genuine. 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Product As Community Panel with Keen IO, Firebase, & Nylas

Speakers